It’s not. That’s just how the game works. Yes, calling it “auto-correct” makes it easier to talk about, but the most important thing is to try to understand why it happens, whether or not it’s good or bad, how to fix it, and what the side-effects of the fixes might be. Saying “remove auto-correct” is not really useful, especially if one doesn’t understand how it works.
Consider that down/up charge motions work regardless of which side the character is facing. If the move comes out facing the opponent, noone considers it an “auto-correction” even it works on the same principles.
It’s seems intuitive to try to map the input motions to the actions the character does, but it’s misleading. There’s no reason they can’t introduce a move that looks like a DP, but has a down/up charge input instead. Where would the auto-correction be in that case? If, for example, Dee Jay’s EX MGU turns out to be a good AA reversal, and the motion was charge D/U mash :p:, would people moan that it stuffed their cross-ups?
If you want to add a new rule to SF that says all horizontal directional moves should fall away after being crossed up, then you’re basically changing the way the game has worked since SF2.
Most of the tweaks people are suggesting are not “rapes”. There’s a huge difference between slight nerf and rape. Rape is 2i Sean to 3s Sean. No one wants that. The problem is since Ryu doesn’t have any tools that are “too good” just a ton of tools that are “very good”, it’s hard to agree on what to nerf, just that he needs a slight one.
Really, Ryu needs a slight nerf in some of his tools, combined with a new tool or two to make up for it, such as donkey kick. That would keep him at around the same power, freshen him up, and give the rest of the cast a chance to catch up to him.
You know, I’d actually like for Capcom to remove his LP SRK->Ultra combo. You should have to pay 2 EX bars to get that combo off. LP SRK->Super is probably still okay… this is probably just because I’m no longer getting a chuckle off seeing G3 Ryus only ever us LP SRK even though I’ve only ever met two Ryus that could pull off any sort of combo after it.
I still absolutely call that auto-correction. When someone crosses me up as I’m playing guile, I’ve auto corrected my ultra to the point where when it starts he’s facing to the left, after the ultra animation he turned around to the right and properly kicked in the right direction.
I make that distinction because if you mash it out, you’ll get crossed up on your wake-up shoryu. If you input the directions, wait a moment, then hit punch, it goes out the right way. To me, that indicates that something is different between the two. it seems mashing the input locks you into whatever direction you’re facing, I’ve never once had an auto-correct occur when mashing a wakeup shoryu and I’ve never had it happen TO me against someone who’s mashing a wakeup shoryu.
Anything and everything in which your character alters their facing after you input the move falls under auto-corrected maneuvers. I don’t really care about the technicality of whether or not that’s true, that’s just what I refer to it. It’s, for me, a classification of what happens.
Auto correct is just a label for the phenomenon that happens due to the following factors: large reversal window, input leniency.
I have said this before, but there is nothing wrong with giving that natural consequence of the game design a label, as long as people understand what is really happening underneath.
I’m of the opinion that any valid moves are dropped from the buffer when the player’s central points cross over therefore a ‘perfect’ crossup (i.e one that crosses over and hits right on the frame you become hittable) leaves you with 1f, the frame the crossup hits, to hit the button. The reversal window is massive, hit a really late j.lk crossup with ryu that crosses over super late and there is no way you have the how-ever-many frames the reversal window is to land a successful reversal.
Except that Guile’s Ultra motion has a horizontal component, so you can’t really compare it.
The only thing that matters is the position of the opponent relative to you by the time the final valid :p: is pressed. Mashing doesn’t matter, but it should be fairly simple to see why you can’t exploit auto-correction if you do it. (hint: not all auto-corrected moves are reversals).
Sure, it’s perfectly sensible to simplify the complex phenomenon into a simple terms, if you understand why these things happen in the first place. The problem is that people talk about auto-correction as if it’s something new or individual phenomenon.
If that were true, then Blanka’s crossover hop Ultra would be impossible.
But to get this back on topic, the easiest way to “fix” this for Ryu (and all anti-air DP chars) is to shorten the delay allowed on his DP.
@Redrapper
Hey you were pretty damn silent when i quoted a couple of people saying that ryu was exceptional in all areas, and that some scrub would use baiting as an excuse for SRK being the way it is. Perhaps you ought to learn how to use lp SRK since you’re claiming it gets stuffed so often and that’s one of the stupidest things i’ve ever heard.
i stopped posting in this thread because it’s obvious you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Ok, i can’t wait until i see evidence of lp SRK being a shit anti-air or lk flipkick being “free” or ryu having the least options then. Suppose i’ll go to the bison forum and ask them if not being able to combo into ultra is a big deal on offense in this game, or not being able to use the full benefit of an FADC. Should be interesting, thankyou for not responding.
** Non-FADCable reversals is a great fucking suggestion. **
I actually thought so as well until i thought of characters that don’t rape because of it and need that to strengthen their defense.
Well, in fairness bison CAN combo into ultra…and its actually a very good setup off a VERY VERY good air to air move that stuffs damn near EVERY other aerial attack.
Yes, but is it better than what ryu can do? I see bison players requesting more setups into their ultra alot. If you don’t want to be ultra’d by bison you won’t be, and if you don’t want to be ultra’d by ryu then goodluck to you depending on who you are playing, and ultra is a pretty big deal in this game as far as establishing who’s a better character it seems
Why bother nerfing him when he really ISN’T a overly done character? There are issues with the game mechanics themselves that need addressing and most of those would help vs him. They have all been addressed in this thread and I’ve addressed the ones I think are the most problematic for the cast at large. I didn’t bring up “auto-correction” though, which is also a stupid problem.
What tools would you nerf? I could see all the various ways into ultra (ex hurricane, j.mp, ex fireball) being complained about but MOST of his big damage comes from the opponent in the corner (or DP FADC), coincidentally, where his ex fireball and ex hurricane are most dangerous. With these HUGE stages, people hardly even see the corner anymore. In fact, in every sf I can think of Ryu has been a problem when your back is in the corner. I guess I just don’t see what the complaints are really about, is it people hating Ryu from not being able to beat him or are these suggestions for legitmate changes with legitmate reasons?
You know, I really didn’t understand why ken was made to be so bad vs Ryu in this one. I don’t know about the shoryu but ken always had the inferior fireball game 'cept for like ww. LOL! I wonder why capcom decided against giving ken the funky kicks too? Why mold ken after this 3S type vs the ST type which seems to be the theme for the other ww characters (minus chun I guess). I agree though, speed ken up. I think his fireball is fine, fix his uppers. Those minimal buffs with his current mix up game would bump him up a good amount imo. Anyways back to ryu talk
Fair enough on that point…once dictator gets ultra, if you never jump and just be really safe so you don’t get focused…its damn hard for him to land it unless you do something really stupid and give him a big whiff to punish.
Ryu on the other hand…with DP FADC in play there is almost nothing you can do to avoid getting hit with that, short of turtle up to the point of ridiculousness and even then he can bait a throw tech and still punish with DP FADC Ultra.
No one mistake this post for complaining, just a fair comparison of Dictator’s ultra options versus Ryus.
Aye, that’s why it went under a separate sentence. You were asking if I would consider a flash kick changing directions to be an auto-correct: yes, absolutely. When I ACFK on wake-up to stuff a cross-up (which works very infrequently due to the way FK sends you out instead of up), I input it so that it does so.
Aye, again, this is all understood. I get how and why it works.
Exactly, I refer to it as AC<insert move abbreviation here>'ing because there’s nothing else to really call it by; unlike the term “shortcuts” that people use to explain input leniency. The previous sentence demonstrates why calling it auto-correction is just a simplification, because there is no, “Well you’re just referring to <word>.” It can’t be summed up in a single word or term, it has to be explained: it’s easier to take something that has to be explained and applying a single term to it to simplify the response.
Again, this is unlike people calling input leniency, “shortcuts,” because “Input leniency” is the thing that has a long explanation that’s being reduced to a single phrase. Calling it a shortcut is misleading and redundant.
If that’s the case, then you’re doing it wrong, because unlike DP’s the motion is always the same no matter which way you are facing (charge down, then up). There’s no such thing as ACFK. People call it “auto-correction” because they’re under the impression that the move should always execute in the direction they entered it. This doesn’t apply to FK’s. Unless of course you’ve got a totally different definition of what AC means.
Er… no. It’s exactly like calling motion leniency “shortcuts”. Both are misleading. “Auto-correction” implies that the game is “fixing” something that is wrong, which is not the case at all. And, auto-correct is directly related to input leniency, which means that if input leniency has a long explanation, then auto-correction has an even longer explanation.
This is a stupid discussion really. You can call it whatever you like as long as you know how it works. I’ve got no problem with people calling early attacks “meaties”, but I do think it’s stupid when people start saying “remove xxx feature” when no such feature exists.
Just off the top of my head, so correct me if I’m wrong…
…but aren’t most of the SF4 characters’ ability to combo into ultras a lot closer to Dic’s than Ryu’s? Ryu has a lot more options than most, if not maybe all (??), other characters.
I can see why so many people want to nerf Ryu’s ultra in one way or another. Since he seems to be more exceptional in his ability to combo ultra, then it’s natural for people to want to tone down one of the fewer stronger characters instead of buffing up many weaker characters.
Like Parabellum, I’m not complaining, but just citing an observation…
I guess your idea works if you want a blander game vs a more robust one. Nerfing ryu vs buffing weaker characters just takes away from the game itself, imo. Yes there are balancing issues with buffing alot of characters but, there was going to be anyways if they (capcom) intended on doing a new iteration of sf4 anyways. I guess it really all depends on how you look at it. I’d like for ALL the characters to have more tools vs keeping characters similar in the next version minus nerfing the tops. I like the way that ultra worked out for Ryu and Id like to see the usefulness of OTHER characters ultra’s shoot way up too for this next version. We all know who needs work, help them out (guile, vega, honda, ect). I’m not for homogenizing the cast and making everyone universally equally good when using ultra’s (taking away from character individuality) just make it so everyone has 1 or 2 PRACTICAL set-ups into ultra instead of a gimmick into one. If that makes sense at all.
And Im not completely against Ryu losing things, as I said before, just don’t nerf him out of the game. Even if they took say, ex fireball -> ultra and ex Hurricane - Ultra, I think he would still play just as fierce, just not as bad “hail mary safe move that is confirmable into ultra” type lol. I would like to see that damn mule kick come back, I love it. I don’t even care if its wall bound or not, GIMME THE KICK!
Well, I do think there is a lot of anti-Ryu and anti-Ken sentiment out there, because the chars are so overused. Doesn’t mean shit in a competitive setting, but in casual settings and especially online it gets annoying. You do see less of it at high level, so it’s not something that needs tto be addressed.
As for what I’d choose to nerf personally? Two things.
jab and trade SRK into ultra without a FADC
Ryu’s linking game
In return though I’d give him some buffs like donkey kick, the ST fwd+fierce, and maybe even a little more damage on the ultra.
BTW, buffing everyone is not a magic solution to things either. Sometimes nerfs add variety to a character by forcing them to use a wider variety of tools to get the job done, or allowing more of the other guys tools to be useable in a matchup. Those kind of nerfs are good.
The Sirlin nerfs to Sagat, Boxer, and Sim made all three of those chars have to use a wider variety of tools, and yet they’re still powerful in competitive play. Those were good nerfs.
Just raping a char 3s-Sean style isn’t good though.
Yeah, since Ryu has so many ultra setups, it would would make sense it they made it balanced by having it do much less damage than everybody else’s ultra. Wait a minute…
I actually responded to you directly after you posted. I deleted my response because Haduken!, a friend of mine, kept laughing at you. SO I felt like walking away.
lol, like I really need to be silent. I met Warahk yesterday at OC quals and we both had a good laugh at you. And btw, as of a week ago I’ve started alting Guile, and I still think you suck… as does he if you look at that picture I posted. We were also making fun of you on the Wednesday Night Stream(though not by name. That would be pretty fucked.)
Hey, it’s cool. I beat one of the best Ryu’s in socal yesterday with the shit I said-- but apparently you don’t understand how to do so. I see results with that shit… using characters who are far below Ryu’s fucking tier level or whatever to get things done. If you can’t see results, then you’re doing something wrong.
