I don’t really want to go into hdr buffs but, sagat got BUFFS mostly (New sagat did anyways), Rog got a minor nerf that effect his throw game SLIGHTLY and Sims nerfs really didn’t do much to alter how he played. I would still argue that he is one of the best characters. Anyways, you are right in that ALWAYS buffing characters isn’t a end all be all solution but in the case of sf4, I think the solution fits well. Lots of characters just need a little more fleshing out, which I am sure the sf4 team didn’t know how far we, the “hardcore” community, would take the fadc/ultra system. Now that they can see the potential in it, they can make appropriate changes for everyone else (characters) to be able to use the system to their full potetial too. I’d rather see Guile Sonic boom, New move, fadc, ultra then tone Ryu so everyone can compete on a similar, less tools, level.
Man, you would take the FUNNEST part of Ryu away? Links? I think that’s just the cvs2 player in me but, this ryu and cvs2 ryu have to be the funnest to date, combowise. Trade ultra can go though, good riddance to bad play.
You have a good point, but how would a nerf of any of SFIV Ryu broaden his playstyle, or anyones else’s (while still keeping him good in competitive play)? Just about all his tools are viable, if not good. I don’t see how you could force Ryu to use more of his tools, when he already uses them all.
Trade SRK Ultra I definitely agree should go. but why AA LP SRK -> Ultra? If anyone gets caught with that it’s entirely their own fault.
Also, what about Ryu’s linking game? The only thing I could see is removing his links into sweep.
i totaly agree dude it feels like some characters ultras become a novelty when ur up against good players. I think Ono said he realised that guile needs a combo into ultra so i really hope that more of the SF4 cast get the love they need. if so SSFIV will b the best
you asked about offense and argued that bison’s scissor kicks were dangerous because you could just do “faster moves”, now you’re talking about combo’ing into ultras. there’s more to offense than being able to combo into ultra, an scissor kick is still a great move. you’re changing topics in mid-argument.
I can see why so many people want to nerf Ryu’s ultra in one way or another. Since he seems to be more exceptional in his ability to combo ultra, then it’s natural for people to want to tone down one of the fewer stronger characters instead of buffing up many weaker characters.
That’s funny because noones even been talking about that up until now, and to my knowledge i don’t think anyone on the page wanted less ultra setups necessarily. A few things ryu has would do the game wonders if you gave them to other characters, for example some of the links like cr lp to cr mp. And alot of things would just make the game ridiculous if they gave them to other characters such as having as many ultra setups as ryu has.
If everyone had that many ultra setups, or everyone had a super as good as ryu, game play would severely slow down the second anyone got access to either as people would be wary that nearly anything they did would be punishable with ultra or super. If you gave already strong characters moves that had number like -1 on block or -2 on block that also might not be the greatest idea
you asked about offense and argued that bison’s scissor kicks were dangerous because you could just do “faster moves”
Yea i totally said that bisons scissor kick wasn’t dangerous as opposed to saying it wasn’t free like your buddy did…only that’s not written down so you clearly just made it up. Yea…ultra and super setups are kinda sorta part of the offensive game aren’t they? So why would we ignore them? Scissor kick is a great move, so is dragon punch FADC,EX hurricane, hard kick hurricane…what’s your point?
The people who actually main bison seem to think that it can go both ways, but they advise to stay away from FADC opportunities, which is all but guaranteed to happen if the bison player thinks that lk scissor kicks against ryu are “free”. If you don’t want to respond, then don’t.
Naw. Good shit. Yeah. Cuz all uz rappas talk like dis yo? SHiet negro, we all undeducated and muck? yeah.
Good shit. Original Joke yeah. E-peen… that’s real good. You wanna lay some chuck norris quotes in there?
You’re still bad. And you’re still an idiot. And you’re losing the argument so you gotta just go and get out the grammar stereotypes, and internet ego line. Actually yes. I’m getting a lot of internet ego from this. Keep posting.
I’m picking up Guile because I like the character. I played him in ST, played him in CvS-- and I played him at the comic con tournament back in 2008 before the game was even released. But it’s all good. You’re a trash Guile anyway.
But it’s cool. Keep posting away buddy. Just giving me more ego. You’re giving me more shit to talk about every wednesday on the stream when me and Jay Chen laugh at your ass. Good shit.
It’s all good though. Keep posting. Won the argument. Tribal’s leaving so we can’t just take turns on you. It’s all good. I’m gonna go play some SF4 now. But feel free to keep posting. Free ego for me.
Not quite. The reason people talk about Ryu being completely balanced is because a) he is the original SF character and b) before 4, he was ranked somewhere near the middle/high-middle in every game. He had some great moves but also some disadvantages and was not the best or worst at anything.
To be sure, Ryu’s always been “good”, as you say. The problem is that in SF4 he is more than “good”, he’s great. Top 3 at worst, IMO. So for people to sit there and still claim that he is “perfectly balanced” is just dishonest and/or ignorant.
Now there’s nothing necessarily wrong with Ryu being top tier. The issue I have with it is that he’s not top tier in SF4 due to new tools or players developing strategies that gradually make him more powerful in the right hands over time like Akuma, a character that can be devastating when a player is able to maximize his advantages to surpass his weaknesses. With Ryu, its as simple as: he doesn’t have a weakness. Basically this means any scrub can pick him up and do better with Ryu than with any other character because of his innate superiority in most basic aspects of the game. You don’t have to be as knowledgeable because most stuff Ryu has is fast/easy/low risk. Hence 12 million scrubs selecting him.
What’s really frustrating is that a few simple changes could make everything the way it should be. Ryu has always been slower and stronger, Ken faster and flashier. In SF4, Ryu is faster for some reason. Slow him down (walking speed, normals speed). Ken has always had a better srk, Ryu the better hado. In 4, Ryu has the best of both. Fix that please.
Yeah you can say “well Ken was way better in 3s so why can’t Ryu be better in 4?” My response is, first, two wrongs don’t make a right. And secondly, the ultra system in 4 already gave Ryu a huge advantage in that respect.
Again, these aren’t nerfs…more of a fix back to the way things always have been. Why? Because they make sense and create BALANCE, which Ryu users love.
I think I remember reading somewhere that Ono said he was designed to be easy to use… and they succeeded.
If I made a list of the beginner friendliest, it would have:
Ryu-very easy to link and combo with
Ken-same, and his EX shoryuken hurts…
Balrog-spamming crouching jab just works decently well at beginner level play
Gief- LARIAT, high damage, high stamina
Bison/Akuma/Seth/Rufus fail to make the list… Rufus and Bison require some practice and Seth and Akuma’s low stamina makes them not beginner friendly.
Least beginner friendly:
Viper - hard links/timing
Gen - technical
Vega - Disadvantaged
Dan - Disadvantaged
Rose - technical
Dhalsim - radically different playstyle… it isn’t intuitive to a beginner
But that’s just my quick thoughts without reflecting too heavily. I’m interested in hearing who others think would make the beginner-friendliest list and who would make the anti-beginner list.
EDIT: revised due to kich’s correction… thanks kich
I really wouldn’t bring Ken in here, especially given ^ that statement.
Reality check: Ken’s FP.SRK actually does stupid -bad- damage relative to other FP.SRK’s (Ken’s does 140, Ryu’s does 160(?), Akuma’s does 190). It’s strength lies in the distance that it places your opponent, it’s perfect cross-up distance, so if they’re stupid and bad at blocking, then one fp.srk leads to a game ending cross-up loop. Ken’s MP.SRK actually does more damage (and is a far better anti-air unless you’re aiming to do an AA.FP.SRK > Ultra setup).
And yes, obviously his super can be cancelled off of it with no timing skills, what super in the game requires timing skills and can’t be done via mashing outside of charge characters and grapplers? The same can be said about virtually every circle character in the game, mashing a move will cancel from a normal into a special into a super.
Apologies for offtopicness, just sounds like someone’s played one too many online matches and assumes that the fp.srk spam shit actually works.
Dude, not trying to be a dick, but this is all wrong. Ken’s fierce SRK definitely does NOT do “stupid good damage.”
Most pro players agree that Ryu is a pro level “skill character”. There’s a reason there’s only 2 notable Ryu’s in America. In the entire country there is 2. There are many Sagats, many Rufus, many Akumas and a shitload of Balrogs. A few Vipers too. At least 3 high level dhalsims. At least 2 Abels.
To put things in perspective, in America there are just as many high level Gens as Ryus.
If Ryu was such a “free win button” why are there only 2 Ryu’s? Why is the only Ryu to win big american tournies a guy from Japan? The guy that also just happens to be the same guy that has been considered the best overall street fighter player in the world since 1998.
Edit: If 2 beginners pick up this game, I would imagine the one that pick Gief wins just for the simple damage output/stamina ratio.
As far as Ryu and Ken having easy links, do beginners even use links? I would imagine Akuma has the easiest beginner level combos (good damage for minimal execution) although akuma is NOT a beginner character. It takes time to develop a good understanding of mix ups, baiting and all around mind games and trickyness that Akuma;s game incorporates.
I was thinking EX SRK and said fierce instead by accident. Thanks man on the correction.
To respond:
I am not saying Ryu is a free button win. I hope it didn’t sound like that’s what I meant. Prof21 brought up in his post about how he is often used by scrubs… I was expanding on that idea, not trying to say Ryu is a free win, especially not at tourney level.
And you brought up high level play and tournies… again, that was not the point of my post… I was talking about beginner level ease of use.
Viper’s hard timing means nothing at high level play because high level players master it. Viper’s hard timing makes a difference at beginner level play.
If it’s on fire, it’s a fp.srk. Granted, his EX.srk, yes, like the fist of an angry god that shit hurts. Nothing says “Fuck you” like a 240 damage flaming uppercut. But the fp.srk is low-end damage. His average, typical combo doesn’t exceed 200 damage. His jump-in “You just made a really bad decision” combo hits upwards of 400 though :nunchuck:.
And really, you weren’t thinking of his EX. Because if you were, you wouldn’t have said it cancels into his super. Not hatin’, jus’ sayin’.
Yes, Kich, once again. (You know your shit). yeah, I really was thinking of EX because I have been hit with it online and saw how much life it took and thought “really?”
I was also thinking about a combo where a jumping normal is cancelled to SRK then cancelled to super… I have also been hit with that online and that shit hurts, too.
I jumbled the two in my head.
You deserve credit for knowing your data well and not having a lot getting by you. And yes, it is true, I do not know a lot about Ken’s stuff, as I have never played him extensively. I just know the shit that has hit me before and I thought “wow, that hurt a lot, especially for how easy it was.” You are right on this one, and I have no problem admitting my mistake. I was wrong.
Aye, definitely, any combo of Ken’s that ends in his super is going to hit like a train. As infrequently as a Ken really should be getting it given how fucking awesome his EX.tatsu / EX.SRK are as well as his FA > fp.srk > FADC > full ultra setup, it hits for 400 damage with a 3 frame start up. Shares top tier super damage with Zangief and the like.
I don’t think his popularity has to do with that though, I’d say it has a lot more to do with fp.srk and his ultra being outrageously satisfying to hit people with. That shit-eating grin he has on his face when it zooms up on his ultra is just fantastic .
Definitely an easy character to understand the basics on though.
Yeah, but you also have to weigh who is Ken is playing.
For instance, I almost exclusively use Vega. If a Ken player notices I do not have a charge (as I often don’t, I HATE sitting on downback) he can jump in for free all day. Vega is one of the freest characters in the game to jump out.
So while a good Ryu shouldn’t be getting hit with too many jumping roundhouses cancelled to EX SRK or j.RH > SRK > Super, it is more of a threat to a Vega main.
… and we are quite off topic.
Good discussion though. I think it’s an interesting topic: Most beginner friendly v. least beginner friendly.
I think that’s just the cvs2 player in me but, this ryu and cvs2 ryu have to be the funnest to date, combowise. Trade ultra can go though, good riddance to bad play.