Ryu changes in SSFIV thread

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
961

first about perfectly balanced, I think you are misanderstanding.
being balanced doesn t mean being average.
it only mean that in all part you have nothing extremely strong and nothing extremely weak.

if you speak about set up to lead to ultra rufus is better than ryu

punish no ex lk hk then ultra
combo full screen no ex lk hk ultra
corner no ex tornado to ultra
jump hk to ultra as AA when both are in the air, still no ex…
messiah to ultra for 3 ex as anti opke and AA…

ryu need 2 ex full screen, 1 ex corner . 3 ex trom very far(cr.nk ex hado fadc ultra)

the only thing better than ryu has is that is AA and anti poke need only 2 ex instead of the 3 rufus needs.
and I don t speak about domage , ryu defenetly loose in this game against rufus ultra…

and ryu doesn have any strong advantage against any one of the cast.

sure it might be a little bit hard for honda, but then it will be hard for ryu against dalshim or sagat.

most of the cast is 5/5 against ryu… he is complet and have many tool to fight all situation. but nothing OP. If yoiu loose against a ruy player it will not be because of a guessing okizem or a strange vortex.
it will all be because of the ryu player able to beat you.

and please stop about tier list, except Sagat wich is above every one and vega under , all the cast is quiet close( speaking about arcade version don t know about console character).

for me definition of an Over powered character is that if you play against someone stronger than you, you still manage to win because of your character ability.

with ryu that doesn t happen…

962

I appreciate Ryu being excellently rounded, i think whatever delusions people are having from Ryu being imbalanced is the fact that for a character with relatively even matchups he ranks 2nd/3rd among most tier lists.

It leads me to think, Ryu doesn’t need a nerfing, everyone else needs a buffing.

I agreed he is not outstanding and he doesn’t have glaring weaknesses. There are a few things about Ryu which are very good, perhaps better than all other characters but he’s not imbalanced because of it.

If SFIV had an academy awards, Ryu would no doubt take home a few trophies but often just barely if at all.

963

Sure sure. I mean, he’s good, the details of his toolset are quite good in this game, and I don’t think I’ve seen a tier list that hasn’t had him top three, maybe top four, and if they’re buffing everybody, I’d want to see him buffed less than almost any of the characters (I’ll be crying if he gets his donkey kick), and if he’s nerfed a bit I won’t cry, he’ll survive, but at the same time, he doesn’t slaughter anybody, his zoning may be signifcantly above average, but it isn’t enough to chew through Giefs and Hondas like Sagat/Seth (in fact I belive those are both 5-5), he doesn’t have whatever it is about Rog that allows him to eat Blanka/Vega alive, and his rushdown may be above acerage, but it doesn’t even come close to Rufus/Akuma’s. He goes 5-5 to 6-4 with everybody*. Even the Claw matchup gets put at 6-4 at pretty much everywhere I’ve seen.

This is important because in my eyes, much of the purpose of balancing fighting games is to have as many (tournament) viable characters as possible, and to me that means he doesn’t need to be touched. If a character has 7-3s in their favour, then those matchups need to be looked at, because that makes the loser of that matchup annoying to use (in a tournament). If a character has a bunch of 6-4s or worse against them, then you should look at that character and determine what can be done to make them (more) viable (in a tournament). So I look at Ryu and go “sure, he’s really good, but in what way does nerfing him give us more viable tournament characters?” and the answer I get is “it doesn’t, why fix what isn’t broken**”.

Admitadly, there is a little voice in the back of my head which says “reversals which can’t be safe jumped, and can lead into Ultra, the hitconfirming of which is safe on block make the game less interesting”, but mostly I channel that feeling into “I really don’t want more characters like that” as opposed to wanting to nerf Ryu/significantly change the way he plays in SF4.

(*Dan not included. He cries too much so nobody ever includes him in anything.)
(*Using the layman’s term broken, not the balance term broken)

964

Okay… Honestly? All this bullshit aside… I’ll tell you a big reason why there’s such an argument against the people who do this Overpowered Argument.

Honestly? Ryu still has to work for every match up. you can argue and shit, but it’s true. Rufus match? Its in Ryu’s favor, but you have to play HARD. You can’t just jerk around and shit and expect to get anywhere. If Rufus baits a shoryu, Gets a knockdown, or even ONE divekick in… His mixup game is a BITCH to deal with… and the match can turn in his favor very quickly with the damage he does. You have to be on your shit in order to win these matches. That’s why it’s really kind of stupid people say Ryu’s OP-- because it’s not like Ryu’s just hit a button and everything’s hunky dory. IN that case me and like half the other people here would be getting top 8 at every tournament we go to. We have to outplay the Rufus 100%…

EVERY single match is work. It’s not like we can just click off and go to town. We gotta MAKE you do shit in order for our shit to work. If you decide not to jump and we throw a hadouken mid range… you tap focus dash-- it’s a free combo. If you predict a hadouken… grats-- say goodbye to a good chunk of our average life.

There are characters in fighting games who you really just need to not think and play, but honestly calling this character braindead is ridiculous. I asked that 92792 or whatever his name is to prove to me the “braindead” theory, and he just shrugged it off and kept mentioning “frame data” “frame data” “frame data.”

And then after that it’s the mind game that gets you.

Honestly, you guys need to read those articles by ponder. They describe so much. Even aside from this Ryu thread-- fuck the changes or whatever, if you want to become better players just read those things.

And honestly, everyone do everyone else a favor and don’t go into other peoples character threads and bitch in moan like little children. Honestly. I hate the Balrog matchup, but do you see me going in there and yelling “WHY THE FUCK ARE HIS JABS SO GOOD! FUCK THIS! AND HIS GOD DAMN s.RH?! WTF?!”

Jesus guys. Just stick in your own threads, and ask for stuff that’ll help your character… because pretty much all that’s going on here from people who say he’s OP is “Hey… I have trouble dealing with X. My character has trouble with it. Can we take it out plz?” when you should be going to your thread and saying “My character needs a way to deal with x. Can you give us this tool?”

9272952 mentioned his pokes. A legitimate point he had was about c.MK. Honestly… c.MK fucks guile up like nobody’s bussiness. You can lightkick the shit out of it… or bait sweep, but it’s still a threat… and a fucking bitch to deal with. If they were to buff one of Guile’s normals… maybe his crouching forward or something-- he may be able to deal with it better. His booms have always had difficulty with Ryu’s fireballs… so keep that the same. But almost every character at this point, including Ryu, can cross him up for free. So instead of saying “Well lets make Ryu’s crossup worse”, why not just ask to make Flashkick a more viable anti air, and make it’s Autocorrect a little more viable as well.

Ask to buff your characters instead of nerf… because honestly, all major nerfs do is just fuck balance up. In a game as balanced as this one… wouldn’t it be a smarter Idea if you gave the lower tier characters A LOT OF buffs, and made the higher tier characters get only a FEW buffs? Things would even out, and even then there’d still be low tiers. But even if Ryu fell to mid tier on the tier list… he’d still have his c.MK, Hado, and combo potential. He’d just have to deal with more shit… WHICH WOULD BE FINE. Ryu was Mid tier in ST and had some even BETTER tools on some of his shit than he does in this game. You could lp SRK through a fireball. SICK. And you’re talking about matchups… dude, in HDR his only bad matchups are Balrog Vega and Dhalsim… almost every-- and I mean EVERY other matchup is a 6 for him. Out of 16 matchups 9 of them were 6’s. That’s over 50 percent. Only four 4’s. And the other 3 are 5’s. He has 12 even or better matchups… and that game is fucking BALANCED. Fuck, I have to work about 80% less in the Chun Li matchup in that game, then I do in this game, and the Guile matchup doesn’t scare me at ALL in that game. Ryu still wrecks at tournaments in HDR… hell, in ST when he had 6-4 matchups and 7-3 matchups… Ryu’ still could fucking scare people. I don’t really see people complaining about Ryu’s crazy ass tools in HDR? They just find a way around that shit.

They’re buffing everybody. So just do yourself a favor, and be productive by staying in your OWN thread and asking stuff for YOUR character… Honestly, it just seems like a better idea. Gouken is one of my favorite characters to play, and I’m not gonna stay here and bitch about how Ryu’s c.MK and close range game are hard to deal with… I’m gonna go to the Gouken forums and ask for more combo potential and a better anti air Damn it! Seriously. I’d tell you, we’d have a lot less name calling if people just focused on how to make all the characters better instead of worse.

965

I met the guy person. I also disagreed with him on the overpoweredness, and he respectfully understood my viewpoint. He also somewhat agreed with me after that Buffing Guile would make it much easier. The other thing… is he presented intelligent shit. You haven’t presented one intelligent viewpoint thusfar. As well… you just insulted one of Socal’s best seth players(saikyobeast) in your last post, implying he was a scrub. Yeah okay.

I called him a scrub? Fuck man you must have been such an amazing pleasure for people to try to teach in school. I’d bet a fucking healthy sum of money not a damn soul would agree with you, if they actually knew what you were REALLY arguing, that’s why i was convinced you had to twist my argument into some retarded version of the original to get someone to disagree, WHEN THEY SAID THE EXACT SAME THINGS!!

If it’s so stupid why would you need to twist it? How can it be stupid if he and anyone else who’s head isn’t up their ass says the same thing? How old are you if you take net reputation seriously?

**
It would make perfect sense that a character could be average in every area and therefore avoid being ‘below’ average in an area.

But that’s not Ryu… he’s far above average in almost every area.**

Ok, talking to these guys can have you thinking you’re speaking chinese amongst a tribe of aborigines, thanx for a little bit of honesty. I mean shit i can mention how every other character in the game is balanced, except ryu.

Maybe when people say he’s perfectly balanced, they mean it in the bodybuilder ronnie coleman sense of the word where there’s no part of him that isn’t monstrous. They sure as hell don’t mean it in the context of “Yea he’s really good at this but as a trade he’s bad at …” Because really the only thing he’s bad at is being bad anywhere.

If you think ryu has to “work” to win matchups then maybe you should play my character for awhile. Almost every matchup is bad, yet you won’t see me saying “nerf lariat” like some guys here and i never said to spear sagat either, because i recognize how they are balanced. Why ryu then? Maybe it just pissed me off that sagat was going to get a nef because the ryu army used him as a shield.

When i learned weeks ago that it seems everyone is getting better, i figured that capcom didn’t want the ryu army to cry, because they realize that there’s no way you can nerf sagat and not tone down ryu. Instead of risking pissing off a huge portion of their buyers, they just make everyone better, although it’s doubtful they are going to make everyone as good as ryu

966

yup yup yup

this thread back on track. . . NOW!

967

Like… what? He doesn’t need to be changed. /Thread

968

Wait for it…

wait for it…

If you remember, Saikyo Agreed with me on the Honda thing. So in effect yes, you did call him a scrub… and that’s why I responded as such. Also, what I’ve been arguing this whole time is that Ryu is a fairly balanced character, because he has to work for all his matchups… and that Ryu doesn’t just win for “Free.” I’ve been arguing that he’s not Broken, and that there are legitimate ways to beat him. You have to work for all your match ups. They agree with me. And to the best of my knowledge, when I asked him this at GUNZ… so did Saikyobeast.

Most of the stuff that you quoted in there by the way I learned from Alex Valle, SHGLbmx, Sanchez, and Jaychensor. The lp Shoryu I learned from SHGL, Sanchez and Jay(after which they told me to try Heavy Punch Shoryu’s more often as it does more damage. It’s also off frame Data… The invulnerability frames on the lp SRK are jack shit… so you have to do it super early… and if it’s a Balrog or even Guile and they time their jump in well, lp SRK gets stuffed 100 percent of the time) They all agree on the predictability thing, but once again that comes down to the player to make him unpredictable… but it’s a hurdle for Ryu. And Valle told me in quotes the first time I meat him “Dude, you play Bison… you’re going to get pushed into the corner.” Haduken! agrees with me too, but you probably don’t know him. He’s up and coming in So Cal. But those other names… man… I mean what Tournaments Have they ever won? That “Alex Valle” guy… jesus…

969

Ryu: 8 setups

angled j.MP -> Ultra
(corner) EX Tatsu -> Ultra
(corner) EX Hado -> Ultra
EX Hado -> FADC -> Ultra
DP -> FADC -> Ultra
(anti-air) DP -> Ultra
(deep jump-in) angled j.HP/j.HK -> Ultra
(Lvl. 2-3) Focus attack -> Ultra

Rufus: 10 setups

(target combo) LK -> HK -> Ultra
angled j.HK -> Ultra
(corner) Galactic Tornado -> Ultra
(corner) EX Galactic Tornado -> Ultra
Messiah Kick (low ext.) -> FADC -> Ultra
(far) s.HK -> Ultra
(deep jump-in) j.HP/j.HK -> Ultra
(corner) f.HP -> Ultra
(corner, anti-air) LP Snake Strike -> Ultra
(Lvl. 2-3) Focus Attack -> Ultra

TL;DR version:

LOL NOPE

Someone correct me if I’m missing any.

970

LOL, Cry more. Apparently the concept that you don’t have to have a glaring weakness to be considered a well balanced character is rocket science to you.

There you have it. The sense in which Ryu is balanced, in a nutshell.

Though every other character being balanced except Ryu is laughable. I’d like to see you try making a convincing case for Sagat, or Rufus, or Balrog, as well as the other end of the spectrum like Dan, Vega(Claw) or Sakura. The shortcomings and strengths clearly don’t even out, especially if you think if Ryu is OP.

Keep crying about how he doesn’t have any easy openings that you can exploit. Your time would be better served working on your yomi and mind games, especially if Ryu beats you hard enough to justify how much you complain about him and put him on a pedestal.

Again, I’d still like feedback on the changes I think he should have. Preferably before we feed the troll again.

Proposed changes:

  • cr.MP 4 frame startup, make it even on block, and 1 more frame recovery.

  • SRK doesn’t trade. Either they beat out clean if done correctly, or get stuffed. Removes those silly reset juggles.

  • Fix EX Tatsu glitch, -5 on block. (Punishable, yes. Highly punishable, no. Spending 1/4 meter shouldn’t be a liability compared to the normal Tatsu.)

  • Joudan Sokutou Geri, HCF+K. EX Wall bounces, Dmg scales 25% Automatically. Juggle properties on wall bounce, of course (I’d say EX takes 50% meter, but looking at Juri that doesn’t seem necessary. Just damage scale combos after that heavily.)

  • New Ultra, higher dmg, fewer (if any) combo options. (Metsu SRK, of course.)

  • Shorten all reversal windows to 3 frames. (Not a Ryu nerf, but Ryu benefits from the 4 frame window as it is)

971

Pwned

972

Why do you keep calling it the “Ryu Army”? It’s not like we organize and shit. Should I call you the Guile Army? Fuck, the description would fit better. What? Are we like blood brothers and shit? Do we meet and plan out strategies like “Hey guys… the Guile people are attacking! We need to find a formation quick!”

By the way, Parabellum is a Chun player, Saikyobeast plays Dan and Seth, Roboticelf to my knowledge Plays Abel, tribaL plays boxer … I mean… Does that make them part of the Ryu Army? Shit, if we had an army, we surely would have had more in the top 20? And Saikyobeast is the only one I know personally.

Oh… and Lol at how I need to watch your guile in iv play to know what working at a matchup is. I played Ryu in third strike. The chances of me going up against an Elena or lower is fucking slim in a tournament setting. It’s mostly Ken’s, Chun’s, Yun’s, Makoto’s and Dudley’s. And some Urien’s too. And that Yun matchup? LOL! You have tools to deal with Ryu… that Yun matchup is RIDICULOUS. RIDICULOUS. And Chun? She outpokes me on EVERYTHING. and that game is ALL POKES for the most part. I went to AI today, and had a 60 percent lead on chun… She was near death.

Low forward Super. Game. Low forward super. Do you understand me? You think light punch super is crazy in this game? Chun’s low forward super SA2 in 3s? And Yun’s Genei Jin?! Oh get the fuck out.

I know exactly how it is. And I hate it. But even if they rebalanced that, I’d only ask for a buff on Ryu. And most of the time, I just deal with it and outplay her.

973

Pretty untrue. Take a look at Akuma. He’s the definition of balance in this game and he’s very high in the tier list.

974

You have to compare the relative difficulty of each setup too. Ryu has far easier and more applicable setups than Rufus.

975

With Ryu you missed:
Trade DP -> Ultra
Super -> Ultra
Corner air-tatsu -> Ultra
Fireball on landing opponent -> Ultra
Corner AA lk tatsu -> Ultra
Corner lk tatsu crossup -> Ultra

There’s probably more, but this is a pretty pointless way of comparing Ultra combos.

976

damn do yall have like downs syndrome or something? easier != more

i apologize if you actually do have downs syndrome or you have a relative that does

977

Exactly.

978

Easy there, tiger. You’re making assumptions about my intent that I didn’t intend and weren’t implicit (or is that implied?) in my comment. All of this bellyaching comes from comparing characters against each other, in other words people are pointing out a weakness or flaw in their character of choice and crying foul at its lack in Ryu.

Weakness does not equal flaw. Other characters have more specials, higher damage potential, longer reach, faster speed, etc which Ryu lacks and can be classified as “advantages”, this would lead to Ryu having a weakness in comparison to those characters. These are usually counterbalanced in some way such as Akuma’s health that gives Ryu an advantage in that specific attribute. In some instances these various strengths and weaknesses balance out, other times the characters end up somewhere above or below Ryu.

As for exploitable weaknesses, try the person playing the character. Lets say that Ryu has a tool to answer anything any character can throw at him. Now lets say that not all of his tools are an answer to any given situation, so the correct tool needs to be used to net an advantageous result for the Ryu player. Now lets also say that timing and spacing are also required even if the correct tool is chosen.

His weakness, in addition to what I mentioned two paragraphs back, is that he can be misused. Which just so happens to be shared by all of the characters in the game. If Ryu is on the offensive and makes a wrong move he is punished, if he is on the defensive the same thing applies. If his blocked attack leaves an opponent at a frame advantage (using frame data for good here, don’t flame me to hell) he will take damage, provided the opponent chooses the correct move. If his spacing is off he takes damage, same for timing.

Now we could indulge in some navel gazing and say “Well if Ryu was played perfectly he would beat XX% of the cast 100% of the time. OP!!!” which is what I would read into your “doesn’t have a weakness” comment (forgive me if I’m wrong) but that is pointless and a waste of time.

Sorry if this is coming across as pedantic or what have you but really you kind of read a lot into a simple statement.

And my apologies to everyone else for indulging in forum flexing.

979

:xeye:

So… his weakness is something that all characters have? That, sir, is a nonsensicality!

980

Here’s where people have an issue with Ryu. Ryu’s weakness is that the person playing him has to be occasionally stupid. He is purely and entirely a character that is only as good as the person using him.

That’s not a weakness Ryu has, as you yourself pointed out, that’s a weakness of the player. You can’t really define a character’s weakness by the actual person who plays him. Every character has to be properly spaced, properly making decisions, properly punishing, in order to excel with their character.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not at all saying that Ryu is overpowered. He’s an acceptably good character. He is not the best character and he is simultaneously without downfall, which means the idea behind his character works. I’d prefer his damage to be toned down slightly in most regards (he’s faster than Ken in just about every way, and while Ken and Ryu shouldn’t have predefined roles, it seems odd to me that they designed Ryu to be far more rush-down up-in-your-face-kicking-ass-i-tude than Ken is while simultaneously making him a better zoner and better anti-airs).

I only got into fighting games with third strike about a year and a half ago, and my experience there with Ryu made sense to me. He was a powerhouse with low combo potential. When coming into SF4 I kind of assumed that’s how he would be: relatively slow, zone-heavy, high damage but not many intricate combos. Was pretty surprised to see how nimble, combo intensive, and juggle heavy his character became during the transition. Was he like that in other SF games before? Obviously discounting SF2.

I’d prefer to see more emphasis on Ryu’s zoning/punishing game (tone down his frame advantages, tone down some of his normal damage, walking speed) and more emphasis put on Ken’s offensive game (tone up his normal damage, walking speed, jump angle). I’ve only picked up Ryu a handful of times (though, over 2000 games against them), and every time it feels like I’m playing a more powerful Ken in fast forward.