Ryu has to spend half a super bar to combo you into ultra on the ground.
Boxer gets that for free, off a GDLK jab combo that is STUPID easy.
I think that is why people are in favor of toning boxer down a bit…Ryu has to work for his setups (FADC is not nearly as easy to do as jab > headbutt > ultra, plus it costs a lot of meter and its extremely costly if you whiff).
I don’t actually want any nerfs, but I do hope for buffs to address some of the serious holes in the toolsets of most mid and low tier characters.
When I suggested they add a frame or two of recovery to boxer’s jab, it was supposed to be under the logic of “IF you were going to nerf his jab, here is how to do it in a sensible way”.
srk fadc ultra is as easy as headbutt > ultra. the both take about ten minutes in training mode to have down pat. we’re not talking about one frame links or character specific setups here.
the real differences are in terms of meter cost, risk, and damage.
boxer’s ultra juggle after headbutt does piddly damage, but it’s basically free. if you whiff headbutt or they block, prepare to lose 300+ life against a competent player. headbutt has amazing horizontal range but loses to low hits and is slower than a sloth covered in snails who are in turn covered by molasses.
ryu’s srk fadc is safe (!), but costs a boatload of meter. it does about twice (someone check this) the damage as boxer’s ultra juggle. ryu’s srk is arguably the best move in the game. he also has lots of other really easy ultra setups (ex. tatsu, antiair jab srk, jumping mp).
Maybe your execution is MUCH better than mine…but I got boxers BNB into ultra combo down in like 15 minutes.
It took me WEEKS to be able to FADC consistently and I’m still not that good at it (only because I main a character who doesn’t have a SINGLE good FADC setup).
I never mind fighting Ryu, but I fucking HATE fighting boxer.
Hate it.
I agree that Ryu has a ton of great shit…probably way more than he deserves…but fighting him never really feels like bullshit…if I lose to ryu I got straight outplayed.
Losing to boxer feels like bullshit unless the other guy demonstrates he is really really good.
The real issue with fighting boxer: He gets to do whatever the fuck he wants in damn near every matchup. Ryu has to adjust around the tools of the other person, but all of Boxer’s stuff works universally.
come on man, that isn’t true of anyone in the game. boxer has no crossup so he has to know who to jump on (and has no easy safe jump setups). his overhead combos are character specific. he has to keep out blanka and gief, and rush down chun and meterless-rufus. he has to play his matchups differently like everyone else.
difference between ryu and boxer is that boxer has some matchups where he dominates (rose) and some where he loses (zangief). ryu is just more even across the board.
Not to be a dick, but if you really think that then you just don’t know enough about Boxer. More or less, you’re calling the character cheap and saying that unless the players using him “prove themselves to you” then they’re not actually good and you deserved to win.
This isn’t directed at anybody specific, but if you’re still losing to Boxer’s c.LP spam, then you should learn how to counter it before saying he’s a mindless, easy-mode character (HINT: Go into training mode and experiment with normals. Also, learn to frame trap during pressure).
Maybe you didn’t know this, but his jumping roundhouse stuffs her EX SBK cold. That is her ONLY wake up and punish tool. She can backdash out, but he can catch her with a sweep at the end of the dash and start the game all over again.
He does not have to rush her down when she is meterless, he gets to rush her down all day long, almost for free.
And please…blanka ball is punishable by dash punch on HIT…so lets not talk about how poor old boxer has to keep blanka out and how that is so hard.
He doesn’t need a safe jump because j.rh is SO GDLK. I’ve seen it trade with DP about 100 times.
Regarding the chun vs ryu match:
Once I get ultra, Ryu’s fireball game is GONE.
He can’t jump at me unless its safe, cause I can stuff all his jumpins with c.forward or c.strong.
The more he uses his main zoning tool (fireballs) the faster I build my ultra and take that away from him.
Chun vs Boxer:
His pokes are better from far away AND up close. Sweep handles her from afar, and jab kills her up close.
She has NO reliable armor break, so all his EX rush shennanigans get him in on chun for free.
The ONLY real advantage that chun has is that she can run a good guessing game on him on wakeup, but if he guesses right I eat ultra and it doesn’t even cost him meter.
I said absolutely none of those things and I’d appreciate it if you refrained from putting words in my mouth.
He’s Boxer, within his character alone, he should be great in the pocket and his footsie game. He’s Tyson: get inside and fuck shit up with eyes close.
I dont play Rog, but i’ve never felt a fight vs Boxer was Bullshit, he can be punish fairly on all his "getting in attempts and his wake-up is not that great.
Not all the time but i feel pissed after losing to Ryus much more. The guy is good at EVERYTHING i mean, EVERYTHING. in fact, out of all the threads in this Super Street Fighter 4 forum, THIS thread is the most useless:lol:
I’m tempted to correct you on what you’ve said about the matches, but your bias is blatantly clear at this point. I’ll just say that the Chun and Ryu matchups are still 5/5…
Yeah but why is Ryu top-tier or VERY close to Sagat then? Despite the loss of meter when doing dp fadc, he has an immense amount of other tools at his disposal that MORE then make up for the meter loss.
Its been already said, one of his many benefits of his ultra are his numerous ways in connecting into ultra. I mean he even has a small version of Rufus j.hk in the air to land an ultra, j.hk has massive priority, low short confirm combos xx into dp then fadc into ultra, really fast fb recovery from both the regular and even the red fbs, its so fast you can even connect it to an ultra, ryu low forward is one of the best pokes in the game, great overhead, great crossover mind games, a nice range on his FA etc, on top of that many of his bnbs can be comboed off of a sweep, setting up for more mindgames. Besides balrog what other character can really do that? Add to the fact that he doesn’t really have any bad matchups. In addition, Ryus DP in SF4 is one of the most effective AAs in the game. Block stun in this game is insanely short, many players can mash the dp motion to sneak in a dp hit confirm between hits then fadc into ultra. The list goes on and on with him. Heck, you can’t even trade hits with ryu because he gets free special/ultra/super on you.
Obviously all that more then makes up for what little disadvantages (if any) he has. I just find it absolutely BAFFLING that everyone agrees Ryu should be left the way he is (some ppl even suggest BUFFING him or giving him new moves! ROFL!!!), but yet at the same time wants nerfing to other chars like balrog. lol
i agree
i understand what your saying but we all know what small changes can do in a fighting game. The slightest of changes can dramatically effect the way the char plays. Even small ones like adding a frame or two or taking out a frame or two can greatly effect the way a char can play.
Remember that when someone says “it feels like bullshit” that is very different from someone saying “it IS bullshit”.
I agree Chun vs Ryu is close…maybe 5/5 is correct.
**Remember, in all of this I have said over and over that I don’t want to see any of the top tier characters get nerfed or changed at all.
Both boxer and ryu represent perfectly balanced characters with tools for every situation. They are just as strong defensively as they are offensively.
I want to see the mid and low tier characters move toward that level of completeness.**
I stand by this though: Boxer is easy mode. Period. His shit is really good and NONE of it is even remotely challenging to perform.
P.s. ssjGouki - I’m hearing what you are saying. Respect. :china:
we are getting really off-topic so this should probably be our last exchange.
? i’m aware that ex.sbk can be stuffed by his jumpins if they’re timed right, but his wakeup game is just as bad. low hits beat heatbutt, shotos can even just c.mk and either beat normal headbutt or crouch ex.headbutt. boxer also loses charge to crossups, so just crossup late (avoiding headbutt’s slow startup) and he has to take the hit and guess the following mixup.
? if you are eating wakeup headbutts into ultra then you are doing it wrong, because headbutt has a million frames of startup.
? j.hk does not trade with late shoryus. nothing does, because it’s invincibility covers the first hitting frame! (even if it did, that would be good news for ryu and sagat).
? i’m not complaining about the blanka matchup; it’s one of his better ones. but if you rush at him you are going to lose, plain and simple. he has to play it differently from his other matches, which is a point i was trying to make.
Fair enough about the tangent and I hope I didn’t come off as disrespectful toward you. I respect a good debate, especially with people who can make cogent arguments.
((And I never eat wakeup headbuts, thank god I have learned how to get around his wake up game))
I would love it if Ryu got that move in SSF4. Ryu is all about footsies because he doesn’t have a safe way to get in on anybody, having that move could be the answer. It doesn’t need juggle properties because then everybody would cry foul, but at least make it safe unless it was used too up close like the tiger knee. Basically it would be a slightly slower(EX version would be very fast though) version of Ken’s step kick, except with knockdown property and probably damage similar to his tatsu.
don’t quite get this. what’s a ‘safe’ way to get in on somebody? i mean, what’s ryu missing here that other characters have? i guess rog has safe dash punches and sagat has safe tiger knee, but that’s the exception and not the rule. most characters have to just walk up and footsie a knockdown to approach safely, just like ryu.
donkey kick was pretty unsafe in 3s, it was mostly for combos and awesome looking wall-bounce-srk juggles.
Aerial tatsu crossup is also really good for him to get in.
Red fireball knocks down, even from full screen he can follow that with a HK tatsu and close most all of that distance.
He has some decent ways of getting in…unlike poor Honda who pretty much HAS to get a life lead and turtle if the other guy is not willing to make an advance.
