Sure. Would you rather have those 2 bars spent dealing you 2 Ex Tatsus for ~400 damage, or an FADC > Ultra for game? Or would you rather Ryu burn those two bars dealing you 1 hit of chip damage and escaping punishment? Even should Ryu get two bars, or even 4, spending them on escaping a punish is not the preferred use of his meter.
Not to mention it lessens the threat of the SRK, since a good opponent knows that a good Ryu doesn’t want to random or reversal SRK much if he can’t FADC to safety should it fail.
2 meters is worth more than a lot of people seem to think. Like I said, the opponent wins out in the situation where Ryu has to FADC a blocked SRK.
I would rather live with the fear of getting EX-Tatsu’d in a combo than the fear of an opponent only having to land 1 SRK with 2 meters to take half of my stamina, or more.
Also don’t forget that SRK > Ultra can be easily hit confirmed into off of jabs and even cr.mp x2.
Its about the damage vs the risk reward, and both are undisputedly in Ryu’s favor. 50-60% damage for a low risk-high reward technique? No thank you. Also, please don’t act like random / mashed DP’s are always punished or baited, because they’re not.
I main Vega. Then again meter is not all that important unless you land jump in vs a character with a big hit box. Or punish something stupid like a random n.j from across the screen.
And Ryu having to waste that by using FADC to escape a baited and blocked SRK means you don’t have to fear either SRK > Ultra or Ex Tatsu. Point proven. Giving up 2 meters to escape a punish is giving up leverage. Too many people act like that shit is free.
Depends STRONGLY on whether or not your character has command normals mapped to the same attack that you are trying to AA with.
Example: Chun’s forward kick (medium kick if you prefer).
Its one of her best AA normals along with st.fierce, but it has command normals mapped to f.forward and b.forward.
So, you have to let go of the stick completely, with enough time for it to snap back to neutral, and THEN press the kick button. Fail to do that, and you WILL GET STUFFED and eat a combo for usually no less than 1/3 life. Plus, she is a charge character, so she MUST lose all charges to use st.forward as an AA.
That sounds really stupid easy, but in the heat of a match it can be quite hard.
Unlike DPs which can be buffered in about 10 different ways so all you have to do is press the punch button(s) when you see the jump.
And I don’t literally ONLY play chun, I play all the shotos and a LOT of Rose.
If you think AA DP is harder than a command normal, try using her Soul Throw effectively…ST requires you to read jumps so well, by the time you get good with it, you can open you own Psychic Hotline.
My point is that anyone who feels AA DP is in any way, too demanding in SF4 has simply not played enough of the game to have an accurate, objective definition of what “demanding” means.
I know you regard me as some mid tier elitist who likes to whine about easy mode bullshit, but the truth is that the easy mode bullshit is NOT just shitty to play against, its shitty to use. It makes characters boring.
A character having options for everything is only exciting in a game when those options come from universal game mechanics (ala TVC), not from some poorly thought out scheme that only a small fraction of the cast gets to use.
I have NEVER EVER felt that Ryu was OP in SF4. NEVER.
But I do feel that he would be a LOT more interesting, both as an opponent and as a character I’d like to use more, if his game was deeper than it is.
All this is just my opinion, and certainly not meant to offend anyone.
reg. soul throw isn’t a really fair comparison here. it’s basically the worst move in the game, lol. it tempts you to use it then breaks your heart time and time again.
Most games I might agree with you, but not SF4. I barely touch shotos in 4, but I played them alot in ST. Result being that on the odd occasion that I do dabble with them in this game, their anti-airs are just braindead simple. I don’t miss anti-air dp’s in this, it just doesn’t happen.
You can’d overrstate the impact of being able to do them from a crouching stance.
I’ve already gone over this many times. I have no problem with ryu having a strong anti air, but not anti everything. Just because its weaker does not make it crap. shoto dps will and has always been a reliable anti air in every street fighter. You want a crappy anti air, look at Vega.
Aside from vega (no invincibility), rose (no invincibility again) and maybe guiles anti air (shitty lopsided hitbox) in sf4, pretty much character command anti airs work like they’re suppose to (an anti air) and almost all of it is nowhere as good as ryus. its just that ryus does everything else besides an anti air.
I find it kind of funny how people think they’re taking so much damage from Ryu, when it’s not always the case. Srk xx fadc, full ultra does 475. C.lp, c.lp, srk xx fadc, full ultra is 425. Also, remember that you’re usually not getting hit by the full ultra, especially if you still have 60% of your health left. If you truly got hit for 600 damage, you got hit by f+hp, c.hp xx srk xx super, ultra, or you were cornered and got hit by a jump-in, c.hp xx ex tatsu, ultra, or off the ground, f+hp, c.hp xx ex tatsu, ultra. Yea, Ryu can do a lot of damage…but it’s not coming off a wakeup dp. You’re getting hit for 600 damage because you fucked up, and your opponent can consistently do the 1 frame link. It’s Sagat that gets 600 damage for free, not Ryu.
yes and no… you leave out alot about the use of AA’s in general, parabellum hit on alot of it but yeah, he was missing out on alot of things as well, both of you just for clarity probably… but these things go into an AA’s viability as well:
height of AA’s (priority point)… or where the hitbox has the most priority. the lower it is the easier it is to use the AA, take blanka and chun as a great example. blanka loves his LOW to the ground cr.mp, also it has alot of priority… sure it can get stuffed like all normal AA’s, but generally it woill win… same as rufus cr.mp though probably not QUITE as good…
now look at chuns st.mk… her best overall AA.
it hits alot higher which makes it alot harder to use on reaction than blankas cr.mp…
the reason why is because blankas low AA gives him more time to react to jumpins… the fact that it has more priority is just the icing on the cake.
now you also have to look at the angles at which either AA has priority… chuns is a proximity move which weakens it… blankas is a crouch move so as long as he crouches, he will always get the same move… making timing a non issue as far as proximity goes… not so for chun as she has to make sure to get her AA out as fast as possible so that the close version which has NO RANGE doesnt come out instead and fuck her over.
its not just chun… alot of characters have problems like this to a certain extent.
chuns also only works well when used against a very particular angle, whereas blankas stretches out so it can hit far ranged jumps… but for some wholly moronic pos hitbox stuff, also seems to to have really good priority versus moves that are coming down on top of his head…
para already talked about the issues that chun has with same AA because it has 2 command normals tied to it, so i wont go there.
but long story short… not all normal AA’s were built the same, so we cant blanket them all into the same little box.
.
actually you can… you can easiily que up an srk by doing the motion when you think that someone will jump at you, and then see the jump and just press one button… only difference is that your srk will randomly be a high priority version cause of slower reflexes, or a lower priority version early srk, cause of faster reflexes… yeah, thats one dumb thing that has been in streetfighter since 2.
also ryu or any shoto can just (hold forward) anytime that they think that a jump might come, if the jump came all they have to do is finish an already started motion, making it alot easier… this is how i do 80% of my AA dp’s… its (other) dp’s that get me spanked like doing one from walking backwards, which is IMMEASURABLY harder, both from a longer input so a quicker reaction is needed as well as the motion for a dp from backwards is herky jerky as well.
it only takes me between 2 weeks to a month to get to that level if i havent played shotos in awhile, (2pside) on 1 player side it usually takes me about 3-4 months to get REALLY comfortable.
its not that hard, once i get re used to the srk motion and where to hold forward versus what characters, it is 3 times easier than any AA normal ive ever used besides MAYBE a sim AA on like st or some shit like that… but then again i mained ryu in almost every streetfighter i ever played except for 4, so dp’s do come naturally to me…
-edit… oh yeah almost forgat another important thing:
DAMAGE…
ryus dp does 150? whereas alot of characters AA normals are mediums which do 70, a character is really lucky if they have a heavy normal AA that comes from crouch… and yep shotos all have heavy marmal AA that comes from crouch.
but the point being that medium AA characters need to AA twice as much as ryu to get the same damage… so yeah that is also another factor that makes dp’s win… and lsatly dp’s knock down whereas AA normals GENERALLY dont, there are some good things to come from not knocking down like resest type mixups… but those are mostly shenanigans… i think that most players would rather the solidity of a knockdown.
I didn’t really say 400 damage wasn’t a lot there. Just commenting that I think it’s funny how many people think Ryu is taking more than half their life every time he lands ultra. It’s not the case. If he took more than half your life, you boned yourself. Ryu has no “free” “safe” 600 damage combos.
Go check on the average character’s stamina ranking and then post. Also, if you’re Ryu and you throw an ultra that doesn’t fully connect, its either a semi-situational situation such as EX-Hadouken > FADC > Ultra, or you just suck with your timing.
Oh, because Ryu is in such dire need of his EX attacks to play normally right?
Good Ryu’s mostly use his EX attacks sparingly.
EX-Tatsu - used in corner during combos to add on Ultra. Used on wake-up to punish tech grab.
EX-SRK - Used mostly to escape projectile traps, most-namingly Dhalsim’s. Rarely used.
EX-Hadouken - Mostly used in projectile wars and combos to link on FADC > Ultra.
Every decent Ryu is saving meter for 2 things. Super or Ultra setups, thats it.
Saying, “now Ryu is screwed out of 2 meters!” is so trivial because thats the exact reason Ryu’s save meter in the first place. Thats like saying, “Ah, I whiffed an EX-Walldive with Vega! Now I’m out of one meter I could’ve saved for his awesome Super!” EX-Walldive is 10 times more useful than his super, so why waste meter for one when the other is so much more useful?
How much Ryu experience do you have then? I’ve been playing him almost exclusively since release fwiw.
All of the shit talk about Ryu’s DP can be proved/disproved simply by watching both high-level and scrub-level play.
A good player (go watch some Daigo vids) might FADC a DP to stay safe once maybe twice a match on average I reckon, not the infinite meter DPs are always FADC’d BS some people are claiming.
A good player can time reversals without mashing every time and may reversal out of a ‘blockstring’ possibly once a match if the opponent is predictable
A bad player will mash reversal frequently and if facing a good player will take more damage from being punished than they do with the total of successful reversals
A good player will AA successfully 90% of the time because of their timing and nothing to do with the DPs hitbox, a bad player will trade ALOT because they time it wrong and are actually relying on the not-so-great hitbox instead of the invincible frames.
A bad player will throw out prediction DPs a lot and lose more in being punished than they dish out. DPs may beat every move but they lose hard to block and backdash. A good opponent won’t be predictable enough to encourage prediction DPs from a Ryu player, just too risky.