Ryu changes in SSFIV thread

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
4341

Case in point. Braindead this, braindead that. Was Ryu’s SRK braindead in ST? A2? CvS2? Because it can AA and stuff meaties clean in those games too.

I feel that a lot of players (such as yourself) have this self righteous mentality where they seem to think that the fact that they prefer a character that works differently, and has certain disadvantages, means that everyone else should have to deal with your disadvantages too. Shotos are traditionally based on having a DP that can get them out of pressure, and AA attempts to enter their airspace. Many other characters aren’t.

I mentioned that, because in SSFIV Ryu’s SRK has been shown getting beat or trading with jumpins. Often. Also, the meaty beats or trades the SRK if it’s not timed correctly. That’s a far cry from DP auto-losing to meaties on wakeup.

There’s that mentality again. As if every reliable tool that other characters have and yours doesn’t is just braindead. Ryu’s character type is based upon him having that particular tool, among others. Other characters (such as Chun-Li, or Bison), are not. Should reversals and AA require decent timing to be effective? Absolutely. Is this resolved by making them ineffective in general? Hell no.

Not necessarily true, on both counts. First of all, the ability to safe jump the other characters with an invincible reversal didn’t mean that they could be exploited. With the exception of Balrog, and maybe Guile, none of the characters on Theli’s list are free on wakeup. Secondly, being knocked down is a bad situation, despite an invincible SRK. FADC is a costly get out of jail free card, but amounts to a large amount of wasted meter for a few points of block damage and reset momentum. Not a favorable outcome for a DP user, and can only be used sparingly. After that, it’s the same guessing game that it’s always been, the Shoto reversals and sees if his opponent pushed buttons at the risk of a heavy punish.

As for whether the DP still works, this is assuming that the invincibility frames last long enough, into the active frames. If not, no, it won’t work. It’ll either trade or get stuffed.

Agreed. There should be some execution involved. reducing the amount of openings in blockstrings, reducing the input leniency allowing for mashing, and reducing the window for a reversal to 3 frames or less would have solved this problem. Instead, these problems are not solved, and Ryu players simply have a new problem to worry about.

Different characters. Different hitboxes. Your character isn’t about having a beastly special AA. Ryu is. Properly AA’ing with Chun’s normals is about using fast pokes with good range to hit an opponent before their attack connects. Ryu’s SRK is about outprioritizing an opponents attack with your own. They aren’t comparable.

As for wakeup pressure, sure, you have to spend meter for the sometimes unreliable EX SBK. But then again, Ryu doesn’t have Chun’s backdash.

This. If you didn’t have a problem with Ryu’s SRK in any of the other SF games, I don’t understand how you think that giving SRK even less invincibility than it had (which, compared to many other games, wasn’t much in the first place) was a fix that was necessary, or even warranted.

What needed to get fixed didn’t. So those things are still on the list of things that suck about SFIV.

And from all early accounts, Ryu’s SRK has been added to that list, plain and simple.

4342

People don’t hate the move by itsself, they hate Ryu SRK + SFIV Game Mechanics. Mashing in between blockstrings could score you 50-60% damage, depending on the character, and FADC gave Ryu up to 2 attempts in a row with SRK to get lucky and score an ultra. Does this require full super bar? Yes. Does Ryu rely on super bar to be solid? No.

Is it worth the risk?

  1. Hell yes.
  2. What risk?
4343

lol, like I said in an earlier post in this thread, Sagats got a few nerfs, but he also got a brand new move which is now beginning to be explored. Who knows what options this opens up for him. My guess is that Sagat will still be OP in super sf4.

Ryu on the other hand was never OP to begin with and has been nerfed quite a bit. I heard Gen got some nerfs too, but he is known for having improvements in other areas. Ryu got zero improvements, 100% nerfs only, plus a new Ultra. I’d trade in his Ultra II for a reliable AA DP any day of the week because a reliable AA DP is a fundemental requirement for being effective with Ryu, whereas the Ultra II is not. Other characters dont have a reliable AA DP move such as chun (except ex spinning bird), but she has a crazy ass backdash, brilliant normals,amazing speed, air to air dominance, brilliant Ultra I and now an easily landable Ultra II!. She is built entirely differently to ryu and has never needed an AA DP like Ryu.

4344

ryu’s DP will still be a reliable AA, don’t kid yourself. that argument is just a red herring anyways, because nobody should be throwing out telegraphed jump-ins at ryu in almost any game. the real issue is just it’s huge horizontal hitbox, speed, and safeness as a ground move / GTFO me move in sfiv, coupled with the reversal / autocorrect / shortcut / trade systems ? now you have this move that is all reward and no risk with zero execution barrier as soon as those ex bars start to flash. oh and hey here’s a free ultra setup because you worked so hard for it. it’s just too bad that capcom didn’t bother to deal with most of the system issues except for trade -> ultra. these problems didn’t even exist before ? they could have reduced the reversal window, removed the df,d,df shortcuts, made it un-fadcable on block, etc., but pretty much nothing changed. boggles the mind.

4345

Um they changed his dp to two hits so only one hit can be fadc’d, dp dmg down in general, ultras are more scaled now after a fadc, ultras also do less dmg across the board, ground dps might do less dmg (like for sagat) than aa dps, and the hitbox has probably been reduced on his dp (not the invincibility). You can’t say that pretty much nothing changed.

4346

instead of messing with the properties of this one particular move they should have fixed the goddamn SYSTEM. they’re inventing solutions to problems that wouldn’t exist if the system didn’t have all that dumb shit in the first place.

4347

Parabellum (and a few others in this thread) cannot write a single post without (sometimes subtley) putting down players of higher tier characters and bigging himself up purely because he plays a character designed a particular way. It’s pathetic.

May I remind some of the following facts that seem to be intentionally forgotten when talking about DP moves.

  1. On block/whiff they have enough recovery to land your most damaging combo/ultra

  2. FADC costs 2 meter.

  3. Successfully timing a deep (i.e hitting invincible) AA DP is probably around a 3f window.

  4. Executing a DP motion takes more mental focus/time than a normal. (If you want ‘braindead’ AA normal look at Sim’s b+hk)

  5. Mashing DP reversals is pure scrub territory and is not an issue at moderate levels of play.

4348

dunno what game you have been playing for the past year. i get an untechable versus any character not ryu ken or akuma, i go for the juggular. versus those three, you just cant apply the same pressure. 3 frame startup on a move that didnt get trades, or got you favoreable trades was stupid. i dont know if they fixed it the right way, but something had to be done. and what are all these other moves that cant be safe jumped, and that can be made safe on block, that dont have a glaring weakness to show the risk/reward?

and i understand you main ryu, but in what world is fadc a costly unfavoreable move. its extra safe, and ryu builds meter as fast as any other character. im not going anti shoto extremist like most, but you are coming off as being spoiled rotten. youve gotten used to the extra advantages, but if ryu was designed as you say he was. or he was supposed to keep the extra advantages, the developers wouldnt be changing his shit around.

once again, drop the damned crutch, and learn to block on wake up like everyone else.

4349

good job on the nerf capcom.

having a nearly instant invincible move that beats and gets you nearly out of everything is retarded. not to mention it can be made safe and able to tack on a super/ultra for an additional 30%+ damage.

i’m all for his dp functioning as an anti air, just not anti everything else.

why does he even need an all powerful anti everything move? his fireball/zoning game is top notch already and give many characters a hard time.

people need to start using his fireballs and normals more effectively instead mashing dp like a dumbass.

4350

I’ve said it before, if you get beat by a Ryu player mashing on DPs like a dumbass, you’re A. Playing at a pretty low level and B. You suck.

4351

Most of the changes have been made to the system, not just to ryus dp. Anyways reduced power on dps seems to be a general change across the board anyways, so it’s not just a ryu nerf, it’s a system wide nerf.

4352

Your missing the point. Ryu’s zoning game is only good because of his DP. The whole point of Ryu’s zoning/fireball game is to force/put enough pressure on the opponent to make an unsafe jump on you…and then you hit them with the dp during the invinci frames. If the invinci frames are reduced/removed and every jump in either trades (with no benefit to Ryu as trade ultra has been removed) or beats the DP clean then what was the point in throwing the fireball to begin with? Do you seem what I’m saying? With the damage output being nerfed and nerfed even further by making it 2 hits, plus ultra 1 doing even worse damage, there is no real incentive to do dp xx fadc xx ultra 1 anymore! If capcom had made it impossible to dp xx fadc then that would have fixed the problem of somebody mashing out a dp, realising that its been blocked and the fadc’ing to make it safe.

4353

and i’ll say it again. 90% of ryu player can’t zone for shit and rely on dp fadc gimmicks. and no, i don’t lose to dumbass ryu players, but against good ryu players that actually knows how to throw fireballs, having an anti everything dp is just icing on the cake for the ryu player.

actually you’re missing the point. i’ve said before that i have no problem with his dp being a good anti air. but making it anti everything else is retarded. its anti throw, anti low, anti limbs, anti blockstring, anti safe jump, etc.

4354

Actually your missing the point. If you see the question I raised a few pages back, i asked whether Ryu’s DP was a reliable AA as it seems to trade with all jump in attacks in super sf4. Somehow, its become an anti-Ryu thread where people are comparing their character with Ryu! The question we should be asking is what should Ryu’s DP actually be? was it always intended to be anti-everything? As far as I can remember, Ryu’s DP was a reliable ant-everything. It makes sense that it should primarily be used as an AA seeing that it shoots Ryu high up the screen so that aspect of it should not be changed. If the horizontal hit box is changed so it no longer hits crouching attacks then that would make sense too. I’m just not sure what the properties of the DP were supposed to be. Maybe with the nerfs Ryu’s got, his dp might become anti-nothing.

4355

his dp trading with all jump ins in ssf4 is an extreme exaggeration. there has been many older games where ryu’s dp traded hits as an anti air when mistimed but it was always a reliable anti air.

if ryu’s dp was intended to be anti everything, what about other characters command anti airs? i don’t remember balrogs buffalo headbutt losing to lows or honda’s headbutt losing to throws prior to sf4.

so no, ryus dp wasn’t intended to be anti everything, thats why its getting nerfed. in fact, ryus dp loses to safe jumps in every other game and takes even longer to execute (4 frames opposed to 3). It makes no sense that his dp comes out even faster than kens.

and as long as theres some invincibility frames, ryus dp will always have a use.

4356

As for something that’s a true safe jump, only Ryu, Ken, and Akuma have a 3 frame DP. But you act like most people jumping early to bait a DP are all using the just frame safe jump timing that it takes to perform one, every time. That’s silly. Cannon Spike, Honda’s Headbutt, Tiger Uppercut, Fei’s flame kick, Gen’s Gekiro, Viper’s HP Thunder Knuckle, and more moves can be safely baited by a safe jump, but also beat out meaties and are relatively safe/can be made safe on block (maybe not Gekiro, but whatever). You can’t just pressure freely. Also, stop acting like SRK was this invincible GTFO me wall, because just about every character has a way around that shit, not the least of which being a properly timed crossup.

As for favorable trades, as you said, fixed. Glaring weakness, same as it always is, it’s extremely unsafe on whiff or block. This weakness is somewhat covered by FADC, but that’s only possible by spending 50% of your meter.

Yeah, Ryu builds meter. Meter that’s normally used to deal big damage or win fireball battles with EX or Super. Or even escape a forced block damage situation when you can’t afford the chip. Instead, you bait an SRK, and he has to either give up 50% of his maximum meter in exchange for a few points of safe block damage, or eat whatever punishment you deem fit. If you don’t see how the opponent wins out in that situation, I don’t know what to tell you.

Furthermore, in what game (other than SFIII) is SRK not a great anti-air, or doesn’t stuff pokes and meaties? Developers wouldn’t be changing his shit around? Bullshit. That’s weak. It’s not like developers haven’t screwed characters over from what they or their moves were designed to do before (SFIV Vega or Guile, for just one example). If I was acting spoiled, I’d complain about Trade Ultra being taken away, or the fact that Ryu can’t fireball trap with his super anymore. Instead, I’m fine with that, but am talking about some basic shit that he and every character like him is built to be able to do. Not only in SF (Ryu, Ken, Sagat), not only in Capcom fighters in general (ex. Morrigan, Demitri), but even across companies (Kyo, Iori, Ryo, Jin, Ragna, Sol, Ky, etc.), beating out normals, wakeup pressure, and air attacks with a DP that has priority is some real basic shit for the type of character I play.

If it’s some extra advantage I’ve gotten used to, it’s no wonder I have. The shit’s in damn near every 2D fighter there is.

LOL, the idea that DP is a crutch is laughable. I already block on wakeup. Using DP every time someone feints wakeup pressure gets you killed quick, and like I said, getting knocked down is a bad position anyway. It’s the threat of a DP that makes you not want to pressure, not Ryu’s actually using it. Same as it always is. I understand you main Fei Long, and are reliant on pressuring, but the idea that you should be able to pressure for free every time you knock a shoto down with nothing to think about is no better than people thinking that they should be able to just mash DP all day to escape it.

LOL, you act like you’ve never played Street Fighter before. With the exception of the safe jump, none of that shit is new, or at all unfair.

4357

I agree that reversals should require both a choice and proper execution. Sometimes, you should make the choice and mess up the execution and eat a fat combo. This is one aspect of SF4 that still bugs me (I’ve been learning to live with the others). It doesn’t make the game unplayable, but it’s a bit frustrating to mid-level (and higher) players. Of course, beginners love that, and since 90% of all people who bought SF4 are beginners, well…

I mean, overall, it kind of sucks, but it’s here to stay in the SF4 franchise so we might as well get used to it. It doesn’t change the validity of our complaints, but it will save us some gray hairs and will prevent us from irritating everyone else in the room with perpetual arguing! :rofl:

As for Capcom making the “proper” business decision and hardcore-ifying their fighters, I don’t think there’s evidence that it’d be the “proper thing to do”. It might make the game better at the tournament level and it might resonate better with a certain group of fans (core fans, ie: us), but that’s not necessarily the proper business decision as much as we hate to admit it. It’s also worth noting that the 2D fighter basically died after 2001ish, primarily because gamers’ tastes changed (for better or for worse) and the mainstream gamer wasn’t willing to learn how to play the more difficult fighters. So it’s not like Capcom didn’t try to release hardcore fighters; they did, and the mainstream stopped caring.

Anyway, yeah. There are problems with the system, but clearly Capcom is nervous to touch them for fear of alienating the large mass of casuals that bought the first game (ie, the only reason they could even consider making a SSF4 sequel). Frankly, I don’t blame them, and I think they’ve done a reasonably good job building the rest of the game around these “flawed” systems such that it’s still playable and fun (enough) for everyone else.

4358

Shrugs I dunno about that. I mean, tightening up inputs or reducing gaps in blockstrings, hell even reducing the reversal window aren’t really such massive changes that most casuals would even notice, much less feel alienated by.

That comes when you get rid of almost all the familiar faces in your game, and base your system on something that requires tapping forward at the timing of a few frames.

4359

It’s anti-everything predictable. The only time a good player throws out a DP is if it’s a sure thing as you know, the recovery is kinda horrendous.

Agaisnt a good (i.e not predictable) player I only really use the DP after hit-confirming in a combo or as an AA. Y’all make it sound like fierce DP is +4 on block and Ryu starts the round with a dozen stocks of meter.

4360

i guess we’re all forgetting that its fadcable and along with the lenient reversal timing in sf4.

you all act like making his dp weaker will automatically make him garbage. newsflash, they didn’t change his fireball, he’ll still be good.