Can you imagine how much lazy and dumbass Ryu/Sagat mainers will be complaining/whining if they actually changed reversal window back to ST or even HDR timing?
I really want them to remove shortcut inputs though - that thing doesn’t deserve to be in SF ever since it actually messes up your execution.
Anyone find any new vids?
[quote=“Arde, post:4321, topic:81244”]
Can you imagine how much lazy and dumbass Ryu/Sagat mainers will be complaining/whining if they actually changed reversal window back to ST or even HDR timing?
I really want them to remove shortcut inputs though - that thing doesn’t deserve to be in SF ever since it actually messes up your execution.[/QUOTE]
I use to hate it but you can get use to it and even use it to your advantage.
Yeah maybe the “idiot” part was a little much, but it just makes my blood boil to hear people be so dismissive of how much the game suffers because of these fundamental changes to the game mechanics. It’s not a “noob” problem, it changes the game for the worse. I’ve yet to hear anyone argue successfully that it’s a good design decision without resorting to the “capcom needs to make money” argument.
Appealing to the lowest common denominator is not always the best course of action. I wish businesses would start to realize this. In the long run they’re only hurting themselves, because people will eventually realize how shallow the game has become.
I shouldn’t have to adapt by dumbing down my game because capcom, rightly or not, considers the average gamer to be lazy, stupid and to have the attention span of a retarded chihuahua.
Sorry for the rant, but this defeatist attititude just pisses me off to no end.
the thing that makes shoto dp overpowered… (yes it most certainly is) is that it doesnt need METER in order to gain these benefits:
beats all grounded moves
beats all air moves
is non safejumpable
isnt meatyable
all of that for no meter?.. when other charactrs dont even get all of that WITH METER…
lol c’mon. its as obvious as your nose.
regular dp should have slow startup to make it safejumpable, also this would take away from nubs being able to LINK into it as an easy non meter bnb… fuk that, you have to cancel into your special like everyone else not named ken ryu or akuma.
and regular dp should have FEW invincible frames as well (just change where the invincible frames are, like A2)… it would still be comboable from canceled moves for a non mtered BNB. if ryu or the other shotos want a GOOD DP then they should have to spend meter on it like every other character.
so with meter it gets faster and gains more invincibility… what a thought… there is a reason why ex dp is RARELY seen from ryu, and that is because he rarely needs as much invincibility as that dp gives him that his others dont.
-dime
EVERYBODY will be complaining. Imagine if ST timing applied to backdashes.
This stuff has pretty wide ranging implications. And it’s easy to play back-seat developer. It’s a game with flaws, sure. But many of its flaws really are overblown. If you do look back at ST, that game took a while before knowledge spread enough for it to be considered relatively balanced by the public. And unfortunately, the internet fails as a global clue machine.
And insulting players does any argument regarding character balance a serious disservice. Take that shit out of here.
One more thing. 2 meters of EX are a reasonable investment. Perhaps the complaint is at how easy it is to make that investment. But completely ignoring the potential cost of blowing away 2 EX seems odd. And I think the risk versus reward may at least look a lot more balanced with the toned down damage.
lol dime, even with all that most Ryu/Ken players still feel DP’s arent good enough. It still needs faster recovery, more damage, more invincibilty, faster startup.
Dime and Duckstrong for co-presidents of capcom.
Srsly.
Maybe it should be a rule in the game that you have to play 500 matches with midtiers before you even unlock Shotos.
I guarantee you if many of those players had to spend time using NORMALS to AA, none of this bitching would even exist.
…well, maybe it would, but there would be less of it.
There appears to be way more bitching about shotos, as opposed to the nerfing of shotos, in this thread. At least the last few pages anyway. I guess more casual players are just less likely to post in the character-specific forums? :wonder:
Edit:
Incidentally, it looks like Sagat might have just become the super-ryu: http://www.hadoken.net/?p=1567
im not making the argument that anyone should have invulnerability stripped away. what i am arguing is that there should be the possibility of applying wakeup pressure to all characters with a frame perfcet set up. in sf4, if you jump in with an air meaty, you are given 4 frames of recovery during which you can not block should your attack whiff. a wake up srk starts up in 3 frames and is invulnerable up to the fourth. this makes ryu, ken, and akuma the only characters who are immune to being attacked or made to block after being knocked down. every character you listed has a given wake up attack. however, these attacks do not hit until the 5th frame in the best cases, and as late as the 14th in others. this means that i can time a meaty jump in and be able to block before their wake up reversal hits or becomes active.
every character in ssf4 will have to deal with safe jumps except akuma, and he was given low hp as one way to balance that out. in vanilla sf4 shoto dps were overpowered. blocking on wake up is something you will have to learn, just as every other character in the game has had to do. knockdowns=bad situation. lose the crutch and learn to deal with pressure.
You mentioned both safe jumps and safe meaty. Which is why I didn’t narrow the list to those with 3 frame reversals.
If teleports get you out, then wouldn’t dhalshim, m.bison, and seth be similar to your assessment of akuma? I’m guessing that’s why you singled him out.
no. sim, bison and seth all have long recovery frames at the end of the teleport. akuma only has 9 while the others have 20+
and on characters without sub 5 frame reversals, yes, they can be safe meatied with jabs and shorts by most characters.
being able to zone out most characters, and void wake up pressure if they do get in was too good. shotos wont be free on wake up now, but adjustments to the hitboxes and removal of most post trade damage should make them less like a get out of jail free card, and more like a strategic tool
I thought ALL Shotos DP got nerfed, or is it just Ryu?
Not to sure about that. I think its just makes the character effective. Other character do no need an AA such as a dp because they have stregnth in other areas such as recoery, speed, and priority. Atleast this is how it feels when playing with a charge character compared to a motion character.
If you have a dp than it should be used as an AA. Using a normal as a primary AA is silly to me when a character doesn’t fit that play style.
Am I misinformed for thinking this way?
I do think that Ryu’s DP was really good, but if it’s got the hitboxes that everyone’s saying it’s got now that seems like overkill to me… I could go into what I think should and shouldn’t have happened, but it’d be a waste of time. What’s done is done.
And it is really no use comparing Ryu’s options on wakeup vs other characters. They are designed this way for a reason. Some characters are designed to have weak wakeup options (Balrog, Abel) because they are strong in other areas. Some characters have run-away options (teleport etc). It’s all about the balance of a character. If every character is weak on wakeup, then we will have a cookie-cutter cast of characters where everyone plays the same. You’ll notice fast characters normally have weaker reversal options and typically, less life. While slower characters mostly have bigger health and more wakeup options. Ryu is in between these. Of course some wakeup reversal is completely safe, others are quite dangerous when baited (SRK) and there are stuff more dangerous than SRK (Rufus ex messiah). Again it’s no use comparing one character with another regarding just one aspect of their game without assessing the overall strengths and weaknesses of a character.
Sure take away wake-up SRK, then give shotos a teleport? 
And before people start panning this, no I don’t really meant it. As for Ryu, broken or not, just play the game and find out what works and what doesn’t. If antiair SRK is a big part of your game (it is for me) and antiair SRK doesn’t work anymore in SSF4, then move on to another character.
Is that true? Looking at Ryu’s frame data (because he’s a good measuring stick, pretty average), best case scenario looks like his cr.LP: 2 active frames, 7 recovery. So even if you do it perfectly meaty, that’s 8 frames you are exposed to wakeups. That’s only gonna be safe against a handful of moves, like EX Messiah, Rog’s Headbutts, Ultras, the slow stuff.
Gotta disagree there dime. There are ground moves that beat the dragon punch: throw (namely chun’s throw, yes, I have been thrown out of that shit on wakeup before), some commando throws, and doing absolutely nothing to bait the move if you want to count that, as well as a bunch of ex moves as well.
Dragon punches have been beating air moves straight up since street fighter 1. There’s nothing wrong with that. If you jump in when I’m not doing something, you’re going to get hit. This applies to a lot of other characters as well. But for the record, there are air moves that beat the dragon punch (deep dive kicks for example, late crossups, crossup hurricanes, etc)
Non safe jumpable isn’t too big a problem when you do a safe jump in and press absolutely nothing, allowing you to bait the dragon punch and block it.
not being meatyable, under normal circumstances shouldn’t be a problem. But when you incorporate FADC ultra against an meaty attack, you might have an argument for this aspect being too good. On the other hand, baiting the move still applies. I’ve used the fact that my opponents have 2 bars and ultra against them because i know they’re more likely to toss an uppercut out for no reason during that time.
All in all, I personally felt while still too good, dragon punches weren’t as broken as some people make them out to be. Lowering the damage is fine by me. Taking away the trade into ultra, by all means, yes. Extra reduction on priority might be a little bit extra in my opinion. While you reduce the number of idiots who succeed from mashing dragon punch, you also potentially raise the number of idiots who will succeed with random jump ins with no purpose (this of course will be dependent on how much priority they took away from the dragon punches).
Just Ryu. Everyone else got buffs. They nerfed Ryu the most out of all the characters in the game. He’s pretty much shit now.
I think their logic there was that Ryu had the most practical FADC ultra out of his shoryu, and thus, was too dangerous to be left alive.