Who cares about flowcharters and scrubs? If you’re not one, they don’t matter. They shouldn’t be able to beat you.
Hell, to beat a good player, Ryu needs you to be on top of your footsies, timing, and zoning at all times, as neither his damage output nor his stamina was such that you could afford to play sloppy through the match and still win (Sagat). Especially now, as Ryu does far less damage on his DP and best Ultra setup by extension.
Playing good footsies, zoning properly, and maximizing damage is also way above what most scrubs can do. It’s not like there’s really any difference.
“Who has the better Ryu/Sagat”? Bull. I don’t know what tournaments you’ve been watching, but I doubt that Ryu was dominating in any of them. I can’t remember the last time a Ryu won a US major tournament that wasn’t Daigo. None of the major tournaments we’ve had in Philly have been won by any Ryu player. SFIV isn’t so unbalanced that only Ryu and Sagat were viable. The majority of top players don’t even play Ryu.
Nobody gives a shit about losing Trade Ultra. It’s about damage output. Ryu’s was good, now it’s worse. We’ll have to see how much worse, and how much that affects his matchups against other characters. Same with the reliability of SRK. If it’s still a very reliable move, then Ryu’s still fine at close range. If it really has lost it’s invincibility (I don’t see it based on the recent vids), that could really hurt his game up close and on the defensive. We’ll see how it goes, but if you were getting trashed by Ryu in SFIV, you’ll probably get trashed by him in Super. That’s because his nerfs so far will only factor into the outcome of a close game, and he wasn’t that difficult to deal with for most characters in the first place.
Never mentioned tournament finals. Just that many tournaments come down to who is the better Ryu/Sagat. Any tourney you go to, the majority of characters you will face will be those two. If you say otherwise…well, ur just plain wrong.
The only nerfs seem to affect his ultra setups, and fadc damage. I do half agree with your assessment that if you got trashed by Ryu in SFIV, you will likely get trashed by him in SSFIV. However, losing the ability to counter ANYTHING with trade->ultra will hurt, as will having to deal with some of the new ultras (ie-beware of Bisons even more)
What kinda bullshit…? You’re Dictator fams and all, but damn! This isn’t true at all of GTA tourneys, and to my knowledge, it’s not even true of tourneys in YOUR local scene!
True, but let’s just say that Ryu and Sagat have more built in leniency than most other characters - or at least they had in SFIV, no idea how it will play out in SSFIV. Pretty sure the will be less forgiving than they were in vanilla but more forgiving than characters like Viper.
I think comparatively speaking they will still have the right combination of tools to appeal to most of the scrubs and that will still make them a popular pick over less obvious ones.
Nobody isn’t saying that playing Ryu and Sagat well requires a lot of talent. Obviously, that’s stupid. The point is that the bar for playing them well enough is significantly lower than it is with other characters. This has been discussed ad nauseum in this thread and I’m not going to go over those points again. This is the general consensus and while there’s a lot of hate and hyperbole that color the comments I think it’s a pretty fair assessment.
No need to get all defensive about it, it’s pretty much a well known fact about these characters. It doesn’t make you a scrub if you use him even if he’s a scrub friendly character. That would be like calling Daigo and Mago scrubs when clearly they’re anything but.
Is that so? The majority of the characters you face? No. NDRWPNDY may be able to speak for your scene that that’s not true, but I can add that in my local scene (Philly) Ryu players are much fewer than you claim. We have like a handful that show up to tournaments regularly. Hell, even Sagat players aren’t that common. We have more Balrogs than anything else.
Also, if Ryu and Sagat aren’t in the finals, then the tournament clearly didn’t come down to who has the better Ryu/Sagat. Especially when other characters are winning it.
Ultra setups mostly come into play when the game is close enough for your revenge meter to be built up. Point proven. Like I said, trade -> Ultra doesn’t matter, and I’m glad it’s gone. FADC -> Ultra is the important one. The loss of damage on that is what hurts. But if you can’t beat a good Ryu consistently, you’ll never see the benefit. If you can, why were you complaining anyway?
Nothing defensive about it. I’m just saying that it’s the same. Unless the top character has some really high execution bar, you’ll be able to play and exploit a top tier’s strengths just as well as Ryu and Sagat’s. If Dudley ends up as top as he’s looking right now, there’s really no difference between losing to SFIV Ryu or SSFIV Dudley. If Capcom is nice, and Dudley isn’t an even more unbalanced match for most characters. Against Ryu you actually had a really good chance, especially for facing down a top tier.
We’ll see if the top tiers for Super are that nice about it.
eh, i’d say the high stamina, easy to land ultras and insane damage output made him an easy pick for scrubs and with good reason. I find Balrog would be a hard choice because his links are harder and he can be zone pretty well by someone who knows what they’re doing.
but that’s an opinion and you know what they say about opinions…
we won’t know that until the game is released so I’m basing myself on the only thing I can: 3S dudley and the videos I’ve seen online. I’m not sure what you have to go on except conjecture at this point. SFIV was a game where zoning for the most part was king and dudley doesn’t quite fit in with that mentality. He’s a rush down and right away being in someone’s face all the time means you have to take a lot more risks so I’d still say that playing ryu/sagat would be the safe bet. unless the game’s mechanics have been completely reworked I don’t see that changing.
but like I said, these are all oppinions when it comes to Super. In vanilla, if you don’t see this then IDK what to say…
Ryu still looks badass in the recent build. Everyone dp got nerfed so thats not a big deal. fadcing into ultra is not that advantageous anymore because the damage on it has been reduced by a lot. With faster focus attacks I can see metsu shoryuken replacing metsu hadouken. The damage on it is out of hand. With ryu’s speed it will not be a pretty site when ryu deals punishment for mistake. To top it all off his normals still are awesome. Anyone else thinking he same as me about ultra 2?
If Dudley’s sway attacks still dodge fireballs, they won’t be much of a problem. Once he gets in he has good damage output, easy mixup including overheads, lows, throws, moving backwards with his short swing blow, etc. Much of this mixup leads to specials (especially cr.LK -> cl.MK xx) or links to Super. His juggle game is good, and does good damage after he lands a hit, his DP -> Ultra 2 setup looks to do more damage than Ryu’s (about as much as SFIV Ryu, and more than SSFIV Ryu), and LP DP -> Ultra is meterless on a standing opponent. Plus he has links to full Ultra for even more damage off his EX Short Swing Blow. Juggles Ultra off EX MGP… has really good links… you can’t see why I think he’s going to be top tier?
Try basing yourself off this video.
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And zoning isn’t necessarily king. Especially not fireball zoning in the face of characters that get around them. Rufus and Balrog say hi.
Rock, as for Ultra 2, it depends on how fast the startup is for me. If it’s fast enough to punish a good number of unsafe things on reaction/whiff/block, then that’ll be the niche it needs to be viable, even with no setups.
true shit, even Eita and Fuudo in france were mashing sometimes. If they saw their opponents going for unsafe strings more than once, they mashed a few times to get out of pressure.
As someone else said, it IS a legit strategy in SF4. Of course you don’t have to do it too often or you’ll get raped, but once in a while it’s good to put terror in your opponent
yes, dudley in close looks like a beast. I don’t think anyone is denying that but fireballs aren’t the only way to zone. dalsim says hi.
ask a rufus or boxer player how likely they are to get in on someone who knows how to zone them.
all levities aside, you’re not getting what I’m saying. It doesn’t matter if you have ways to get around fireballs: all characters essentially do. the point is that fireballs at certain distances force your opponent to play your game, if only momentarily. and the means more breathing room, and that means an “easier” playstyle. combine this with some wiggle room up close for reversals plus a good ground game and the like and you’re looking at a fairly straightforward, uncomplicated and fairly safe to use character. This makes him a solid character for high level play and it makes him very attractive to scrubs as well.
now this applied in SFIV. Does it apply in SSFIV? Who knows? It looks like it would.
Answer is: just as likely as they are to read someone that knows how to zone them. Dhalsim says hi? Sure, zoning isn’t restricted to fireballs, but you know what the difference between my analogy and yours was? Rufus and Balrog are top tiers that don’t rely on zoning. Dhalsim isn’t top tier at all.
Oh, I get that. You’re not getting that I really don’t factor scrubs into anything. If you’re scrub, I don’t care who you play. You’ll lose with the easiest character to play just as you will with the hardest, with the most overpowered and the weakest all the same, because scrubs don’t really know how to play the game well.
Uncomplicated? Safe to use? So what? When your practicing to up your game for tournament level, how easy it is to properly throw fireballs, or use the rest of your tools doesn’t really matter. And it’s not as easy as you think, BTW.
I’m saying that as solid as Ryu looks, I can see a few characters that look more solid than he. And even if those characters aren’t as “easy” to use for a scrub, that’s not going to deter anyone who has a decent shot at beating someone above scrub level from destroying with those characters. Just as it doesn’t stop people from crushing with Sagat now.
I’m just hoping the top tier is as near even in Super as Ryu was in SFIV.
Look, I get that and I don’t disagree with you. but you’re talking about tournament level play and I’m talking about what appeals to scrubs. apples and oranges.
incidentally, I think sim has a lot of untapped potential and I refuse to believe he’s as low tier as the list indicates although now his chun matchup is probably going to be brutal.
I agree that Sim is severely underrated. The problem is that he’s slow and overall not as appealing as other characters are in term of look and playstyle. This results in less people spending long periods of time mastering him and finding all of his perks. Just look at Iyo, he makes Dhalsim look borderline broken.
As for Ryu, he’s been tweaked so that no one has any excuse to complain anymore, and if they do, they’re scrubs.
I guess what I’m really trying to ask you is why are we talking about what appeals to scrubs? I’m not getting that.
At a distance Sim is downright scary. Hell, I consider him a bad matchup for Ryu, in fact. What makes him not that good is the fact that once you get in on him he’s in serious trouble.
Indeed. Didn’t take much, either, judging by the recent footage. I would have preferred that happen by giving the whole cast all the fixes they needed and leaving Ryu as is, but apparently neither of those things happened. Shrugs
Apparently Ryu can’t cancel the recovery frames of his Hadoken into Shinkuu anymore. Meaning his Super isn’t entirely free damage anymore.
Though he did get that one Ultra II setup I was looking for for it to be viable. cr.MK xx Hadoken -> FADC -> Ultra II links full Ultra in the corner, which also means it’s startup is considerably faster than Metsu Hadoken. I’ll need to play around with this link to see how well he can link it from a Hadoken FADC.
cr.HP xx Hadoken -> FADC -> Ultra II is definitely a link I’m trying first day. If it can work outside the corner, I may run it over Ultra I.
If that doesn’t work outside the corner, cl.MK xx Hadoken -> FADC -> Ultra II is my next attempt.