uh, then play other people that are new to the game? i don’t expect to win any chess tournies anytime soon without investing ten years into that game either.
It never occurred to me that if dp is 2 hit the trade might actually prevent a juggle state… on the other hand I’m pretty sure if akuma hits you with his DP on the first hit it still juggles you so… IDK.
I agree that there needs to be a proper balance between execution and accessibility. The developers for SFIV sided more with the latter than the former but hopefully they find a more even middle ground here. ST and 3S are super technical and therefore tend to scare people who aren’t dedicated away. There’s a pretty big spectrum between Super Smash Brothers and something more complex like BlazBlue/GGX/ST/3S (in the 2D fighter realm. 3D fighters are entirely different although somewhat analogous) so having SFIV fall in the middle is a sound decision.
On the other hand there also needs to be a proper balance so that certain characters with easy reversals should probably have their priority dropped a tad so that while the reversals are easy to pull off you still have to be good to actually land them properly.
Hey, that’s why we invented double-tapping, right? 
There is a fine line between reversals being too easy and too hard to execute. I’d argue that, in today’s day and age (gamers are different [for better or worse] and have different expectations, and they vote with their dollars) that ST-like reversals are too hard. You can argue that SF4 reversals are maybe a bit too easy, and I’d probably agree with you. The answer is not to go back to ST reversals, imo, but to split that fine line somewhere in the middle.
I do agree that reversaling should require both a decision and execution. Just because you decide to reversal NOW, no… NOW, no wait, NOW, you shouldn’t get it out every time with subpar execution. Of course, you don’t want to get it out nearly never (for newcomers), either. It’s actually a tough problem, and just making it brutally difficult doesn’t really help the game, imo. The game is already filled with pretty crazy wakeup pressure due to option-selects and vortexes (seriously, what is half the cast supposed to do against Akuma?), and making reversals harder isn’t going to make this area of the game any less dominant.
I think SF4 is a good start, and reversals should be slightly tighter in SSF4. I don’t think they will be, though. But, that doesn’t mean the game is going to suck, either.
I also don’t really agree with the thought that “now that SF4 has market share back, let’s go ahead and make the game accessible to only a few people again”. I’ve been to parties where people who have played 2 hours of any SF game in their life have picked up SF4 and have been able to execute dragon punches. I show them how to do one (on the controller) the proper way, and they’re amazed at me (lol). They can’t do it. Then I say “well, just wiggle the stick a bit in the corner”, and poof, it comes out. They’re instantly having fun, and they play the game for an hour against the other noobs in the room. I got a message after the party, where one guy said to me “hey, I’m thinking about buying a 360 for SF4”. One guy who had a 360 already actually did go out and buy the game just based on that one experience. That’s pretty cool.
““just wiggle the stick a bit in the corner””, and poof, it comes out.". cool? i think i just threw up in my mouth a bit. seriously, it’s funny how something so basic was once considered accessible for the mass market is now considered inaccessible for the mass market unless it’s dumbed down.
I think the SFIV overdid it with the ease of inputs myself, but I also find it ridiculous to see people wanting ridiculously hard inputs. There is nothing gained by making moves harder to execute. The main problem with SFIV’s system is that it’s so simplified that walking forward and tossing a fireball motion gives you a shoryuken. So yeah, tighten things up a bit so that is no longer an issue.
As far as reversals, Infil’s mindset seems to be right on the money to me. Reversals should require some thought and more timing behind it. You should have to input at the right time as well as pick a side. Anything beyond that would again be completely arbitrary difficulty.
Yeah, it’s hardcore that people had insane execution back in the old days and they were die-hard about it, but the scenes were also much smaller back then compared to how things are today. I for one would like to see larger more robust scenes in which people don’t have to dedicate several years to build up their execution to just be an entry-level competitive player.
At the end of the day fighters will still demand high amounts of execution due to tight links, un-intended glitches in the system, and what have you. Capcom and other companies shouldn’t compound this further by making the most basic of options difficult.
You guys are still glossing over how this changes the fundamental gameplay of SF.
I’m not trying to sound elitist, but I already thought it was way too easy to get a reversal/auto-corrected move in games like CvS2 and 3S.
Calling me a dinosaur is just side-stepping the question.
Was it ever really considered accessible to the mass market, though (hard ST reversals)? ST did well in the mainstream in its time, but you have to look at how gamers have changed. There are way, way more options for spending your money and time these days, and not everyone is willing to invest ST-like time. I’m also not convinced that the casuals who played ST were able to execute reversals, but the difference is, it was harder to run into people who were good at the game back then (unless you lived in SoCal), so executing frame-specific reversals wasn’t as necessary for the casual player.
Of course, most people who are engaging in this discussion on a fighting game message board were hardcore players who could execute those reversals, but, you have to consider other player groups than yourselves when you think about what’s the best course of action for Capcom, as a game company and as a business.
We agree that reversals that are too easy have a profound impact on the game. I agree with you that SF4 reversals are too easy, don’t get me wrong on that point. Mentioning 3s is interesting, because I think 3s is a pretty good sweet spot for reversals. You almost never wanted to reversal anything in 3s, though, but that’s beside the point…
I think I’m just beginning to realize that SSF4 isn’t going to change the reversal window, and I’m looking at the positives rather than the negatives. Yes, there are negatives, and we all know what those are (mashing, etc)… but does it make the game 100% unplayable? If ST is a 10 in terms of a deep, difficult game that rewards skill and execution, is SF4 now a … 1 or 2 because of easy reversals? No, I don’t think so. I think it’s still a 7 or an 8, and there’s still a game to be played once you come to grips that the easy reversals are there (it may not be ST, but not every game has to be ST to be fun). I just don’t think constantly focusing on the negatives does anything for anybody.
(As an aside, I liken easy reversals and depth of the game as sort of a “supply-demand” curve, and they intersect at some point which produces the maximum enjoyment for the most people [ie, the most money for Capcom]. I think SF4 might be a bit too much on the easy reversals side of this equilibrium, but really… it’s not by much. Many players want super-hard ST reversals, but that’s the complete opposite of the spectrum, and while it might produce a deeper game for the few of us who invest hundreds of hours into a fighter, it doesn’t make it the right decision in this hybrid “economics equilibrium” point of view.)
Solid posts worth reading. I honestly do not think any player that uses Ryu would honestly switch to another, for the money. From a gameplay perspective, a lot of the Ryu defenders are right. Ryu from a gameplay aspect is to them, and should be a banner for all characters to try to reach and emulate. The reality however is very different from the ideal, and when it comes down to going to win the pot… going out to win the tournament. When it comes to truly, truly wanting to say “Damn it, I want to win this fucking game.” You’re not going to get any better than Ryu.
That little tournament where people could challenge the pros and faced an endless sea of Ryu’s is not a coincidence. Daigo doesn’t play Ryu because it’s comfortable for him. It’s because he will bring you the pot, and anyone else is a risk, because at their core they have exploitable weaknesses that as a professional gamer you cannot afford yourself to accept.
Ryu grants you immunity to the complete lack of logic that is allowing yourself weakness in the name of flavor. Ryu is not just solid, he’s almost, truly, the only true responsible choice for the player that wants to play to become a champion. From a gameplay perspective, he may be balanced, but from a competetive one, he’s truly a mountain of power that you either need to meet, or exceed. He’s the whole package.
As somebody who has used good inputs, I don’t mind the shortcuts. Yeah, it’s annoying when I try to ultra and a teleport happens, or the game decides that when I triy to teleport with seth, what I really wanted to do was ex SRK the air in front of me.
But I look at friends of mine who have never played any street fighter game, and I can get em to do shoryukens and supers and ultras in no time. If we have to dumb it down a little in order to CONTINUE MAKING STREET FIGHTER GAMES, i am 100% on board.
How can people complain about SFIV so much, and yet continue playing it and posting about it on the forums? If you hate it so much, go fucking play SF3 or viva pinata
thats Heavy…
actually, contrary to SRK admiration of the game. i hate ST for a number of reasons. in any event, that’s not the point. i’m cognizant of how gaming is different today. yes, there are a lot more genre and platforms. still, we’re talking about something so fundamental and basic as an SRK and considering the player base was larger and Ryu and ken were the most iconic charaters. it’s funny, i don’t recall a shortage of novices who couldn’t learn it because it was too hard and/or took too long to learn. also, they were using Happ joysticks which are allegedly inferior to jap sticks.
oh, i already knew they weren’t going to change it. why would they? it’s a good selling point for casuals nor do i think SF4 is unplayable. it’s just average. it’s not a bad game, but it’s not a great one either. it is what it is. SSF4 will be the true test of this series. let’s hope it lives up to the hype.
Ryu’s mom goes to college.
Agreed. Reversals are a basic game mechanic. That said, of course they should require thought and execution, but there’s no need for it to be prohibitively difficult.
Ah, that’s right, I forgot about J. Chen. Thanks. Well then, correction. The majority of players suggested no changes. It doesn’t really change my point in the slightest. I hope that they tweaked the hitboxes on 2-hit SRKs just for the reason of getting rid of trade Ultras.
Sorry, but no. The Mullah corrected me on one point, and it doesn’t change my argument.
Most high level players suggested that Ryu needed no changes? Check.
Being All-around has nothing to do with being average? Check.
While undoubtedly one of the best characters in the game, there’s no aspect of Ryu that’s overpowered? Check.
Best feature of Ryu is the fact that he’s near equally good in all aspects of play (therefore, "All-Around)? Check.
I’m batting 1.000 here.
As for Capcom, all early looks at SSFIV Ryu show him as practically unchanged except for a 2-hit SRK and tighter timing on LP SRK > Ultra. So much for that.
About as retarded as you are to thing you’ve “won” anything by making an ass of yourself on an SRK forum. Get in line. We have more than enough trolls here, though you seem to be a fairly well known one 
Kudos for that.
Sure execution comes into play, but that’s not the same as “people not liking to work hard”. If a good player views a technique or move worth using to them, it will be practiced until consistent, regardless of execution level required. It all comes down to whether or not the player views the benefit of mastering any technique to be worth the practice required.
What can be done about character whoring? Regardless of execution level, people are going to use the characters they like on a casual level, and who they think is the best for them on a competitive level. It’s always been like this, and it won’t change.
Things like that have been done (like BlazBlue’s Easy Specials mode, or CvS2 EO). And no, it doesn’t matter too much. It’s annoying, but ultimately it doesn’t make any character better than another. Balancing a cast comes down to how effective any character’s build is against the rest of the characters. In that, execution plays a very little role, as for balance we’re already assuming that the players have mastered their characters. At such a level, even things prohibitively difficult are used if they are the best options for a situation.
Execution is a big deal only on an individual basis. If you balance character ability with that in mind, you either punish or reward all the players of a particular character en masse based solely on how difficult it is for the average person to use what they have. Which also leads to character whoring, and an unbalanced game, as people are forced to pick character that emphasizes how well you can push buttons just to compete (MvC2).
Factors into making a fun game? Making it so that easier characters aren’t as good, just because they’re easier to use? That doesn’t sound like fun, as it ultimately leads to only difficult to use characters being worth using at all in the long run. Which is just forcing players to play a certain way.
I’m not referring to player experience against a character (although that is a big factor for a match as well). I’m talking about his style. Ryu is extremely straightforward. There’s not really much that he can do that you won’t know how to defend against on reaction. He’s extremely basic, so there’s not really anything he has that’s confusing at all, unlike the more advanced characters.
I agree with Trade and auto-correct+reversal window+DP shortcuts, but all in all, it doesn’t matter. We can agree that he’s not a free win, and he’s not OP. That’s my point. Anything after that, you’re entitled to your opinion.
Been there, actually. I just decided that Viper’s mixups and cancels weren’t worth the trouble, lack of footsies, and low health. Zangief and Honda were a constant pain too.
But being a basic character doesn’t mean he’s just for beginners. You losing a round or match due to messing up your execution is more a facet of Viper than being a problem with Ryu. She has low health, difficult execution, and is pretty bad on a fundamental level. While I have respect for the players dedicated to stick it out with her, their decision to use a difficult character doesn’t mean my basic one should be any less worth using.
This.
While you have a good point, obviously, Sagat is in that position, not Ryu. You pick Sagat for the money. You don’t get any better than him. Ask Sanford Kelly (I did, lol).
I think playing and excelling with shotos, and specifically Ryu, since SFII might have a bit more to do with it. Ryu’s archetype is Daigo’s style, and he uses that type of character in not just every SF, but every 2D fighter he plays. I’d say it’s exactly because he’s comfortable with him, or he would have switched to Sagat like he was considering.
He definitely is the whole package, and as long as he’s balanced from that gameplay perspective, I don’t see why he shouldn’t be. Meeting or exceeding that “mountain of power” is also not a problem at a competitive level, as most tournament level players do just that.
Great post. Made me think.
I agree to a point…
I think Ryu does have one big weakness, the sheer fact that he is popular. This is the same issue that plauges Marshal Law users in the Tekken games. He is very, very popular and very strong in the right hands but like anyone would tell you, they’ve seen all the tricks. Ryu is no different.
The fact is that because Ryu is so popular, he is literally the staple dummy in your training sessions, he is the prime example of the person you bait and trick into wiffing big moves like DP and Tatsu, playing tight with Ryu is critical because any little bit of predictability will out right hurt Ryu’s game. So why can’t most people out play Daigo’s Ryu? Because Daigo is too damn smart, period, He knows how to think. Combine that with an exceptionally balanced character like Ryu and you have “The Beast.”
Daigo is unique, trying to play 100% like him is not gonna guaruntee you the “pot” if your simply picking Ryu because you think your invincible, your in for a world of hurt.
^This exactly.
I do think he’s a **little **overpowered, and just plain dumb with all his free gimmes. I don’t think the player shouldn’t be given a free ride to awesome techniques and escapes, and I don’t want dumb characters. I don’t think there should be a “whole package” at all.
…and you REALLY think execution doesn’t matter? One-button spds? One button combos? C’mon man. You can’t be serious. Developers actually make the motions the way they are for a purpose, to prevent their use in certain situations.
Guile would be a good example of that, if he was given a non charge projectile, he’d be broken ROFL
I do agree to some extend that execution barriers in terms of how to actually do the move do determine how good a character is because execution affects the application of moves, for instance can you imagine a sagat being a charged character? Would he really be able to zone as effectively as he does if he was a charged character?
Guiles properties of his booms is very very good, unfortunately since its a charged move, that alone makes his booms mediocre because it limits the abuse/application and loses to fireball wars, even against inferior fireballs like ken and sakura.
What’s a “free ride to awesome techniques and escapes”? I can only speak for myself, but I work just as hard on my game with Ryu as I do with anyone else, and I outplay my opponents for wins with him, just like any other character. A number of characters have great escape tools. Some better than Ryu (like Akuma). What makes Ryu’s any more free than anyone else’s? He has awesome techniques? Yeah, he does. So? Shouldn’t every character? How is that free? It just is what it is.
Basic =/= Dumb. You can’t play like an idiot with Ryu and consistently win. He doesn’t have the damage output or health for that, and though he has a tool for every situation, none of them are tools that any given opponent can’t handle.
You may be against the idea of a “whole package” type of character, but that’s the ideal of Ryu’s archetype in general. You may not like it, but that’s not really saying that there’s anything wrong with it. And as long as he’s not dominating everyone else on the strength of his character build (which he’s not, by any stretch), there isn’t much of a case for anything being wrong with it either.
I’ve already said that execution matters. I’m just saying that it’s not really a huge factor in character balance, and shouldn’t be. Besides, you said 1-button SRK, not 1 button SPDs, or one button combos. The input for an SRK doesn’t prevent it from being used in nearly any situation (especially in SF4). For things like charge motions and 360 motions, that’s a different story.
Charge inputs give techniques cooldown, or artificial recovery. It increases the time it takes for a character to repeat the move, without actually adding recovery to it. The reason something like that affects game balance is because it makes using certain moves in rapid succession after recovery impossible, as well as making it impossible to use after certain actions (like standing, or moving forward). These restrictions affects a character’s ability.
That’s quite different than something that’s very possible, just not easy to do.
Though I wish charge partitioning was in SFIV, just to help circumvent the restrictions placed by charge inputs without making the move spammable (and thus severely affecting balance).
Not snipping for dramatic effect.
Holy shit, look at this mountain of excrement. Its not even the only one you’ve done in this thread! A quick read through shows that you do this ALL THE TIME, theres even another one on THIS PAGE! You are a trolls wet dream, one line of provocation = 100 lines of scrambling and petty insults. I have nothing to say to this but get a fucking life