I agree with your general premise, but bringing Vega up is a terrible example. Vega just fails at everything.
Not true he is good at…erm…losing.
I’d say he was good at punishing fire balls but that is only with EX meter : (
seriously! LOVE UR AVATAR… :looney:
How is it a terrible example? Vega has advantages (though not many) and disadvantages. Thats the point.
Not quite. All-around means only that the character is equally good in all areas. That doesn’t imply average. A character merely average in all areas is all-around average. Or mediocre.
Actually, the only thing that he’s arguably the best at is his Super. Call whatever you want of his amazing, but not one of those aspects you can single out makes him the best in any general regard. He has good zoning, good rushdown, good footsies, good damage output, average health and stun, great meter usage, and mediocre mixup.
No, not really. The areas that really count are none of the things you listed. In the areas that really count (damage output, footsies, zoning, rushdown, health, stun, meter, mixup), he ranges from great to mediocre, with the attributes that make him an All-Around character in playstyle (zoning, footsies and rushdown) good, but not the best.
Tier placement isn’t decided on a single character. The reason Ryu is top tier in this game isn’t because he has no weaknesses. It’s because most characters’ strengths don’t compensate for their weaknesses in the face of a character that doesn’t have any to exploit.
Why not? Having the “best” of something is a comparison to another. Being all-around is a status based on one character. It means that the character isn’t particularly well-suited to any one area over another.
It has nothing to do with being average, and it definitely doesn’t work that way in fighting games. All-Around characters in most fighting games are usually good in every area, not average. A character average in every attack, skill, and attribute usually isn’t referred to as All-Around as much as referred to as sucks.
And again, that has nothing to do with tiers. The reason All-Around characters shouldn’t be the best in most any attribute is because by being the best in one attribute, they’re usually the best in all attributes, by virtue of their well-roundedness. Which is broken. And doesn’t apply to Ryu.
Ryu may have a few attacks that you consider the “best”, but the bottom line is that he’s not the best in any area that actually dictates the flow or outcome of a match. But he’s good in all those areas. That’s why he’s well-rounded, and All-Around, whether he’s top tier or bottom.
i agree i know a few vega’s that will make you all feel violated
Isn’t the whole point of designing an all-round character the fact that they are average compared to the rest of the cast? Nothing too good, while not being too bad.
What if Sagat’s movement was just as fast as everyone else’s? According to you description of “all-around” he would fit it perfectly. Good speed, great damage, great zoning, mediocre normals, great ultra. Would this make sense? No, because while he is “all-around” when referencing to himself and his design, it would destroy all opposition since they wouldn’t have a single advantage, and because he has no disadvantages.
In this aspect, your definition of what “all-around” means in a game makes no sense both design and balance-wise.
No weaknesses, arguably the best ultra, the best super, good footsies, above average comboability, above average damage output, great spacing game only surpassed by Dhal and Sagat.
He’s above average in alot of fields, important ones, and has no weaknesses to make up for it. Makes sense for an all-around character huh?
A character that is average at everything and doesn’t excel at anything is not an all rounder, he’ll just be an overall AVERAGE character, I think you’re using the term “all-rounder” incorrectly. An “all rounder” in cricket for instance is by no means “average” at batting and bowling, he actually excels well in the areas thus a genuine all-rounder.
Yes I know you’re gonna argue that this isn’t cricket but the point is what makes a genuine all-rounder character is that they’re overall good at every aspect both offense and defense.
Correct, “all-rounders” are overall good, but I think we can all agree that Ryu is more than just “good”.
I think the main thing Ryu had that most characters didn’t was that he had an answer for just about everything. If there was something another character couldn’t do that bit them in the ass in the long run, Ryu could do it so it wasn’t a problem for him. If another character could neutralize his fireball game (Sagat, blanka, etc.), he could outfootsie them. If another character could outfootsie(Bison/Chun) him, he could force trades in his favor. If a character could overpower or run through him(Balrog, Honda), he could outzone them. And if a character could kill him w/ shennanigans (Rufus, Viper), he’d have other options that made it so he didn’t have to play their game. All this of course, adds up to him being as good as he is as I feel SF4 is a game about weaknesses and bad matchups. In the end, Ryu has few to none if any.
I always thought Ryu was perfectly fine, (except the tatsu bug when done on balrog). The only reason I don’t play him is because everyone else does (along with Sagat).
hmm…
doesnt seem like ryu’s ultra2 will have any combos that ultra1 cant do.
i was hoping for donkey kick and all ultra2 combos would revolve around that and ultra1 wouldnt work with donkey kick.
I was actually hoping for the same exact thing but new special moves(even if they’re actually old) wasn’t apart of the priority list for Super it seems. But on the bright side, with his fierce SRK being 2 hits now maybe he can land extra hits from a juggle instead of being forced to use meter. That’d be a welcome addition to Ryu’s game if true.
No. Nothing too good and nothing too bad is how to balance an all-around character. It’s not necessary in order to be one, and “not being too good” in no way means the character has to be “average” at anything, much less everything.
Actually, he’d need more than just movement speed to have rushdown and footsies that match up to his superior zoning. If he had that, sure he’d be broken, because he’d be an all-around character that is superior in every way. But that’s not the case with Ryu.
No, the problem is that having an “All-Around” style, and being an “average character”, are the same in your head. Character design and tier balancing are two different things. There’s no reason being a certain style of character should automatically give you any spot on a tier list.
That’s like saying a rushdown character should be top tier just because he’s rushdown.
Comboability is not an important field (that’s part of damage output). Neither is Super (That’s part of Meter efficiency). He doesn’t have the best Ultra (Sagat). And yes, that makes sense for an All-around character that’s good. Nothing too good, nothing too bad, greatest advantage is the lack of a weakness.
Actually, he’s not more than just “good”. He is just good, that’s the point. The reason he’s top tier in this game is because he’s good at everything, and the lower tiers don’t have enough strengths to offset that. Which is why most of the characters he has an advantage on are the low tiers.
http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/5145/sf4tiers.png
As you can see, out of the top and high tiers of the roster, Ryu has advantage on 2/11 of them. Add the mid tiers, and it’s 6/17. Contrary to popular belief, Ryu does have a bad matchup in Sagat. And all of his advantage matchups up to Dan are only 6-4.
If he was better than “good” at everything, he’d be destroying the rest of the cast, where as it is, he’s just about even with most.
So was I. Oh well. We’ll just have to see what he’s got come 4/27.
was lukkin at the dudley walkthrough from wong, saw that full ultra link from ex, and i thought, its likely not to be exclusive to dudley, and thus can provide a possible way to link ryu’s full ultra, if only by expenditure of 75% or in the corner. this is only speculation but, thoughts anyone?
walkthrough vids are in gametrailers for anyone who doesnt already know. should be on the main page along with makoto n ibuki
I know right? That must explain why Vega’s sits at the bottom in tournament wins.
As long as there’s at least 1 way to link full Ultra 2, it’ll be worth using. EX Tatsu is out, but hopefully we’ll have some way. I’m still hoping for Joudan, but I doubt he’ll get it at this point.
If he’s not more than just good, then why is he considered one of the best in the game? He’s awesome! I think Ryu obviously excels in many aspects of the game, whereas if you want an all-rounder with little weaknesses, you ideally wouldn’t not want him to excel in ANYTHING, to offset having little to no weaknesses. But as it is now, he has awesome answers for pretty much everything, with no weaknesses.
A lot of people just think he’s over-the-top for this reason, and also for ease-of-use. The system mechanics favour him greatly, and his stuff works well right out of the box. You could say the effort vs reward is greatly in his favour. A lot of players are like electricity, follow the path of least resistence, and at the level that MOST ALL players are playing at, Ryu/Sagat are godly. The amount of utility you can squeeze out of him for such little effort is gross IMO, and I think that should be changed as well.
I also wouldn’t consider that matchup chart as hard evidence myself. Some of those matchup listings are ridiculous.
Are you also seriously saying that Sagat’s ultra is better than Ryu’s? If you do, Ryu’s is a close second, right? (Sagat needs to be nerfed too, let’s not forget)
I actually get what Nitro is saying about Ryu being just ‘good’.
If the bottom tiered characters (read: rushdown) had what they needed to do their job (i.e. blockstun and tools to stay in once they get in) Ryu would probably still have mostly even matchups, but he’s be sitting pretty at mid-tier.
I say this because I look at Jin in blazblue:ct and Jin is the ‘no weaknesses’ character of that game with all nearly even matchups, but because other characters have the tools to work, Jin sits in the middle of the tier list.
tl;dr
If capcom follows suit and all the rushdown characters have the potential that the 3S characters have in the SSF4 engine, then Ryu will likely get pushed to mid-tier near instantly. He’ll still work, but others will be better than him in their specialized areas
You want me to repeat myself?
What does ease-of-use have to do with character balance? Nothing.
First of all, there are only a handful of characters that are difficult to execute with in this game in the first place.
Secondly, by that logic, you’re saying Viper should be god tier just because you need to learn how to use cancels to get the most out of her. Which is silly in terms of game balance.
Also, for a good Ryu player to succeed in this game, and especially on a tournament level, requires just as much effort and practice in learning how to play the game and fight as any other character. the only difference is playing Ryu is less focused on move execution and more focused on applying what you have in the right situations.
Lastly, the level most players are playing at doesn’t matter at all for balance. At a casual level, all you have to do to beat anything is level up your own game. Tiers and balance rarely matter much outside of tournament level play, especially in a game as balanced as this one is. Tiers specifically refer to top level play anyway.
Take it as you will.
Sagat got nerfed. Yes, his Ultra is better than Ryu’s. Ryu’s is arguably second, because Rufus’ is arguably better.
@Dasvanu - Yeah, that’s a good way to put it. Tiers are dependent on the whole roster, not just one character.