Ryu changes in SSFIV thread

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
2921

I think the point/question was along the lines of what establishes a tier in SFIV. There’s a number of factors at play but it usually boils down to risk vs reward. Some characters like Viper have to take a lot of risks to setup those Ultras. Pretty much everyone who isn’t Rog/Ryu/Sagat/Rufus do. Strict execution is a risk, whether you want to admit it or not. It doesn’t mean that pro players don’t know how to pull off these combos but the point is that the strictness in a combo/link can mean the difference between landing that combo 90% of the time and landing it 99% of the time. That doesn’t seem like much but in a fight someone like Viper will pay heavily for that execution mistake given how little life she has the tradeoff is huge damage given for huge damage taken. The net balance is that a Viper is simply going to have to take more risks and may end up losing more matches based on a few bad guesses or missed execution. Now the bad guess issue is common to everyone (although given how hp varies from character to character it can be more costly for some) but the execution issue isn’t. Ryu doesn’t really have the same issue. Sure, he’s got his share of 1 frame links but they’re not as vital to his game play as they are for other characters. Consequently his execution requirements are more lenient and risk/reward will tend to skew in his favor.

This goes back to what I said earlier. Logically speaking they won’t make the Ultra II as easy to land as Ultra I and if it does combo from moves they’ll probably make it so it doesn’t combo fully (similar to how it works with Cammy). Otherwise you’re making it so that: 1) Ultra I is useless 2) Ultra II is useless or 3) both Ultras are the same and therefore pointless. More than likely you’ll get one setup (not counting off a crumple stun from an FA) similar to how it works for some characters (like say Bison or again Cammy) that’s unreliable and costly to pull off. If that’s what you want then that’s fine. It’s more than most characters have but it’s not such a huge issue since I think the second Ultras for most of these characters will essentially compensate for this. If you want more then you’re kind of wishing Ryu gets bumped from A tier to S tier…

2922

Nope. That’s about it. One or two full setups that are either risky, costly, conditional, or some combination of those. If he doesn’t have at least that, Ultra II is useless. If he has much more than that, Ultra I isn’t worth it anymore.

As for tiers, we’ll see how it looks once the game comes out. While I’m confident he’ll be good, there’s no guarantee Ryu’s going to be even A tier anymore. I’m maining him regardless, but it’s a little premature to suppose he’ll be instant God tier if Ultra II has a couple full setups.

2923

Sure I do, I just have to baby you and hold your hand as I explain it. You’re trying to justify Ryu having good setups for ultra just because Viper does and asking me why I don’t have a problem with them. Then you list all the disadvantages Viper has. As stated Viper’s Ultra setups are more risky than Ryu’s, and harder to pull off, OFC I woudn’t have a problem with them. I really don’t get how thats so hard to understand.

Safer on block, better punishes, come out faster, “thats about it”. Please. When did I say Gen’s setups were never used? Please try to follow my point, which is that Ryu’s ultra setups are overall much better than Gen’s, and at the same time, control space and helps zone. Do any of Gen’s setups help control space and help zone? Let me answer that for you, no. So based on these facts, why shouldn’t Gen be able to easily ultra after these setups?

Maybe Capcom disagrees with you and doesn’t want every ultra to be used the exact same way? You basically think every ultra is useless unless it combos off of something, such sad logic.

What do you do when someone jumps in when they shouldn’t? SRK > FADC > Ultra
What do you do when someone whiffs a move? SRK > FADC > Ultra
What do you do when someone times an ultra wrong or guesses wrong on wakeup and you block their reversal? Combo > FADC > Ultra

Using ultra II you could punish all of these scenarios for more damage and save 2 EX stocks. Sure these situations dont happen much in high-level play, but according to you, high-level players rarely get caught with Metsu Hadoken setups anyway, right? The only ultra setup I see Diago consistently land is SRK> FADC > Ultra. Maybe EX Hadoken > FADC > Ultra, but thats stretching it.

You’ve been babied with the amount of setups that Ryu’s Ultra has, how about you try learning something new?

2924

Great idea let’s wait till it’s too late, maybe in a years time Capcom will be referring to it as the new LOL Combo instead of Sagat’s current nonsence :lol:

2925

This is not about being spoiled, this is about asking Capcom to actually make both choices worthwhile. Sorry for reiterating my point, but I’m going to do it again. If Metsu SRK has at least 1 or 2 viable set ups, then that may be enticing enough for tournament level Ryu players to select that instead of Metsu Hado. Gone are Ryu’s number of set ups, instead they get a 1 or 2, but with a bigger reward if they can land Metsu SRK. People who don’t want Metsu SRK to fully combo are basically asking ALL Ryu players to stick to Metsu Hado and in turn be forced to deal with all the old set ups. Honestly, wouldn’t you guys feel a little better playing against Ryu knowing that LP SRK or SRK into FADC can’t link to full Ultra when using Metsu SRK?

The only other reason people would use Ryu’s Ultra 2 if it didn’t fully combo is if it did Gouken like partial damage and instead of Ken like partial damage. If they could still get 400-450 damage off SRK, FADC, Ultra then maybe they’ll choose it because there is a chance of landing the full Ultra from a big whiff or FA. But if that same combo does around 300-330 damage with no good set ups then just be prepared to deal with almost the same Ryu that you may or may not hate from SF4 in SSF4.

BTW, Gouken’s Ultra only does 518 damage. Is there any reason to believe that Ryu’s will do 600 or close to it since that’s what everybody seems to be afraid of? I remember seeing a video where Ryu landed full Ultra off a lvl 2 FA and didn’t kill Chun with close to half her life left. That leads me to believe Ryu’s Metsu SRK will probably do the same damage as Gouken’s Shin SRK. I’ll try to find the video if I can.

2926

Supposedly all Ultras have been reduced in power suggesting that perhaps even in the grand scheme of things and factoring in these reductions, that Ultra combo you saw was still monstrous.

I’d imagine these Ultra reductions are in part Capcom’s way of forcing people to attack more as you can’t just slug someone with an Ultra alone to gain a significant leg-up.

2927

Maybe they should just give it a “meh” setup like the 1-frame link blanka’s ultra has, that you scarcely see even at high level, but the ultra is still threatening.

Wouldn’t you rather play against sagat who has as many setups for his ultra as ryu has, but does less damage? That’s ridiculous, there’s a reason other top tiers aren’t asking for stupid things. Sagat players dont want him to suck, there isn’t too much discussion going on that equals what you’re asking for here. If balrog or rufus players ask for more “viability” for ultra 2 then that person is probably seen as an idiot and the argument never gets off the ground.

It’s different with ryu players, anyone can see that.

2928

I wuv theory fighter.

2929

gasp god forbid if ryu’s ultra 2 doesnt combo from anything!

2930

I want Capcom to create some sort of balancing act so that both Ultras will have there pluses and minuses and there is a risk/reward to using both. This would not necessarily make Ryu better, just give him a slightly different way to play and approach him. That’s how I see it anyways.I don’t think that’s asking for too much. If you think otherwise then we should just agree to disagree. Regardless I’m not interested in getting into a argument about it. If you want to say your last piece about it and insult me(although not directly, I get it) along the way then so be it.

2931

Ok my bad, it’s just that it’s sooo frustrating to deal with so many people who have it all and still want more as though ryu and maybe sagat are the only characters in the game. There’s a reason maybe balrog players aren’t asking for an option to play like zangief because of his second ultra, and noone is seriously pushing for rufus to easily combo into his second, sagat players don’t want his ultra to be like ryu’s first, noone worth listening to is asking for raging demon to combo, why should ryu be different when he’s already the character who’s got everything in the first game, and as far as we know, no real nerfs in the second??

You have to take a step back and view that objectively for a second to see that it’s ridiculous and you should just be thankful with what you have. If you want to agree to disagree that’s cool that atleast you’re not addressing this dishonestly, but you have to put yourself in another characters shoes.

2932

You’re the one who brought Viper up, in a failing attempt to make an analogy as to why Ryu shouldn’t have any setups to full Ultra. I’m not trying to justify anything. Justification isn’t necessary. The fact that Ryu has to give up one of the most reliable Ultras in the game to use this one is justification enough for it to be at least semi-reliable. Period.

Did I ever say that he shouldn’t? Why don’t you answer that question for me. You said it was hard. It’s not. Simple. Better punishes? When did I say that? Super Armor and whiffed specials are much more useful things to punish than stupid jump-ins. Problem is it’s risky. Hopefully they fix that for Super.

LOL, WTF are you talking about? I never said he should be able to land full Ultra II off SRK > FADC. In fact, I specifically said that he shouldn’t land full Ultra II off of that. Did you lose your train of thought? Or are you just not reading?

High level players rarely get caught with any Ultra setups outside of SRK > FADC > Ultra. 9 times out of 10 EX Hado > FADC > Ultra is redundant, and costs more meter than HP SRK > FADC > Ultra for less damage.

Lastly, I don’t think every Ultra is useless unless it combos. I said Metsu Shoryuken would be. Big difference. Metsu SRK has no special properties that make it easier to fully land, and little range. Metsu Hadoken has a setup for most any situation. Metsu SRK needs a setup or two to be a viable alternative. It’s a really simple concept.

And since Seth said “a little more challenging to setup”, and not “can’t setup the full Ultra”, I’ve got a feeling Capcom is on the same wavelength with me on this. We’ll see.

LOL, Babied? Whatever guy. Now you just sound bitter. :rofl: I play with half the characters in the game, and plan on picking up even more. I do my best to learn all of them inside and out, and best believe, if Ryu gets some new Ultra setup that becomes the only thing Ultra II works out of (like EX Joudan wallbounce, lol) I’ll be learning that too, just like I do in any other game.

2933

God you’re braindead. Its like you put words into my mouth just so that you can respond with “LOL, (insert random nonsense here)”.

When did I say that you suggested that SRK > FADC Ultra II should fully connect? Hmm? When? Where? you’re a moron. You’re the one losing you’re train of thought, and like to make up random stories about what I said just so that you can seem like the one with a good point. Cool.

Ryu has undoubtedly the most Ultra setups in the game, all of them easy to perform even for beginners.

Try maining Guile, Vega, Rose, Fei, Ken, Fuerte, and Honda for a month. Then you’ll see how spoiled you are with your ultra setups. Some of these characters can’t even combo into ultra in the first place, and even with their disadvantages can still beat top players, though it isnt easy.

You’re telling me Ryu, a character with the best of all worlds in terms of playstyle and moveset, couldn’t be just as good with an ultra that doesn’t have those tens of setups?

Also you’re still crying about his Ultra II not fully comboing. It will probably be stronger or just as strong as Raging Demon, considering its small range. Do you really want that fully comboing in any situation?

It will probably be usable after SRK > FADC and will still do good damage since its so damn powerful in the first place. You’ll still have some old setups for it, and cosidering metsu hadoken is now weaker, I’d assume both ultras will do the same amount of juggle damage, boo hoo, suck it up.

2934

WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS

No one in this thread will ever change their minds! STOP POSTING!

2935

Ok, thanks for responding more calmly this time around. I still have the same viewpoint about it though, but it has to do with Ryu’s Ultra 1 being so good. Basically his Ultra 1 was good in SF4 and that’s probably not going to change. He’s getting a Metsu SRK in SSF4 and it does a lot of damage when fully connected, that’s not going to change. One decent way to land a full Ultra 2(lets say it must be in the corner) with Ryu may be enough to some players to use Ultra 2. But by selecting Ultra 2, that removes a lot of his options to land a full Ultra. Instead of worrying about things like jumping in or 2 bars, you only need to watch out for the the 2 corners of the stage.

As for lower tier characters, I hope they get better. I hope they get new Ultra set ups as well, like Chun with her new fireball. What I’m saying about Ryu, I don’t think it’s a buff considering his options already with Ultra 1. It’s just a way to change things up. I don’t think what I’m saying is unfair at all to other characters. I’m hoping people can see that what I’m saying is not ridiculous, it may actually be a breath of fresh air for a lot of players. If some of you guys continue to disagree then it’s cool. If Ryu has no way to land Ultra 2 outside of a FA or big punishment opportunity then that’s fine. I’m just hoping to not see the same exact Ryu from SF4 in SSF4.

Anyways, if partial damage does the same or close to the same as Metsu Hado then forget everything I just said. But if it’s pathetically weak like Ken’s partial Ultra then well, I guess we’re not going to hear Ryu say Metsu Shoryuken much.

2936

BTW, heres the video I was talking about earlier if anyone is interested.

[media=youtube]CW692wtgz0k[/media]

If Chun still has 900 health then as you can see here, she has a little over half her life left when she is hit with a level 2 FA followed by a full Metsu SRK and manages to survive it. Taking Chun’s life and damage scaling into consideration, I think that puts Ryu’s Ultra 2 damage output around 500. Still very good, just not quite the monster some of you guys thought it would be.

2937

I think the generally consensus is that Ryu’s problem is that he’s been given such a good Ultra I that anything else will seem like a step back for the Ryu player and largely ignored while most other characters would give their left nut to have that kind of "problem"
but in all honesty I don’t think you should expect to fully combo the Ultra II into anything. Either the thing won’t connect fully and do a different animation or it will probably scale due to some thing or another… as puzzling as Capcom can be at times when they “balance” things they’re not out to make obviously overpowered characters. That just happens after people who know what they’re doing start turning the game inside and out.

2938

yeah, it looks like it shouldn’t be too bad. his throw did seem to do a lot more damage than usual though… or am I just imagining things?

2939

It seems like the guy who uploaded the video was at the event. According to him comments SRK FADC into Ultra 2 still does a lot of damage.

It looks like this wiill be just like shinryuken but with more damage output and with simlar setups.

Finally, I think Fouts just hates Ryu.

2940

Oh, I see now. You were referring to Ultra I there. My mistake, I thought you were trying to add something meaningful to the conversation. Instead you were just pointing out the situations in which you hope to catch Ultra without any setups. So, you’re saying that Metsu SRK could replace SRK > FADC Ultra in those situations. :coffee:

In which case, WTF are you talking about? There’s a reason Ultras like Shin SRK and Shinryuken aren’t very useful in countering jump-ins on reaction. There’s a reason SRK > FADC > Ultra I works well as punishes in those situations. HP SRK has 3 frame startup. Ultras generally have 10.

Your solution to Ultra II being useful, is to have it tack onto combos for shit damage, and have Ryu pray that his opponent makes a stupid mistake for it to ever have a chance to actually hit fully. I mean, sure, that’s viable in comparison to Ultra I. As long as Ultra II came out in 5 frames or less. I don’t have to explain to you how broken that would be, do I?

For his first Ultra. I’m talking about his second.

Been there with Guile and Ken. Used Rose and Vega as alternates, though I’ve dropped them. Spoiled is a stupid word to use here guy. Nobody’s forcing you to pick a character with disadvantages you don’t like. Beating top players is never easy, though with low tiers you can always whine and take this “grass is greener on the other side of the fence” attitude, which is very easy. Though it probably does no good to tell you that. You implied the 2nd best player in the world only wins because Ryu’s a good character. :rolleyes:

Yawn Typical. Can’t think of a decent response, go cry about how your low tiers can’t do this and that. Change the channel.

Meanwhile, I’m discussing the merits there need to be to pick either Ultra over the other, so that the same old Ryu that you all have been bitching about since you found out he can link his Ultra actually has some variety to his game instead of always hitting you with giant balls of plasma at every opportunity.

If the advantage isn’t worth sacrificing the setups for it, then of course not, idiot. What good is a powerful Ultra that almost never hits? Ask Honda.

Obviously you just want to be Metsu Hadoken’d in the face for all of your time playing Super, just like regular SFIV.

And what makes you think it will be that strong? If it had near full screen range and was unblockable, then it wouldn’t have to combo. Biggest reason you can’t combo a Raging Demon is cause it’s a grab, not cause it hurts.

Same damage? That’d make Metsu Hadoken useless. Seriously, how in the hell do you figure your setup does anything but allow Ryu to do the same old shit with either Ultra? That’s counter-intuitive to your bitching about his Ultra setups in the first place, moron. Leave it up to you, he gets his best Ultra setup for the same damage, AND a good punish for people who like to fuck up right in front of your face.

Good job.

In other news, I sure hope it doesn’t end up doing good damage off SRK FADC. That’s just so unfair to Ken, lol.