if you have terrible matchups you aren’t tournament viable. honda was a beast against much of the cast in vanilla, but he simply wasn’t going to make it through the inevitable sagat gauntlet.
I’m assuming this is in response to me using the term “overhaul” in reference to Rose’s reflect. By overhaul, I mean hitbox changes, property changes, etc. Would buffing reflect outside of projectiles not make her scarier on the ground?
Then Honda, Viper, etc, wouldn’t have been tournament viable in regular Super. Neither would Ryu have been because he had a 7-3 against Dhalsim.
But they’re still tournament viable.
Zangief in Vanilla? Definitely viable; just couldn’t beat Sagat (not many characters could).
No, I meant the second part, she doesn’t need an overhaul as a character >.>
What second part? I never said she needs an overhaul as a character. I love Rose the way she is, that’s why I’m devoted to her. lol
Yes its fine the way it is because its serving his main purpose: reflecting fireballs. Giving more properties to reflect would indeed buff her ground game specially since we have a useless EX that we aren’t even going to use that much. Soul reflect is already a move you are not going use if you are against a non-projectile character unless its HP reflect to combo it into ST or U2. Considering it already does crap damage, give it more properties to make it more interesting/usable outside of simply reflecting fireballs.
I have suggested that in another thread but no one here found the idea interesting or didnt even comment about it so that’s why I didnt push the idea. But it would indeed make her better on wake up. I wouldn’t say to use meter tho. The way Gouken has it would be perfect for Rose.
A lot has been said/revised about properly fixing/buffing Rose. I’m thinking of writing another message on capcom-unity (more like a thread) about ALL buffs that people here would like to see. That way at least Capcom can have some ideas on how to make Rose better. Apparently Seth and Ono said that they are mostly gonna watch capcom-unity’s forum to know about are the characters problems etc. Again, feel free to post there what comes to your mind. The more the better
I think it would be better to really lay out why we think Rose needs buffs. For example pointing out the frame differences for her moves, why she is free on wake-up and how it cripples her.
Make it general and lay out in a lengthy complete response what is Wrong with Rose. Developers don’t need, nor really want the community to suggest fixes. They can do that themselves but they need to know the root of the issue, not the fixes the community comes up with.
For example her fireball. It blows compared to most of the cast. The use is meter gain, but do we really want a fireball that builds a lot of meter? We can absorb other fireballs so our basic fireball isn’t really needed to win fireball wars, while it would be nice to have it a more powerful zoning tool to use against no fireball characters.
Then they can decide to go a couple ways other than the fixes the community suggests. Just my thought on that, I have seen a lot of posts on a lot of games and posts like that resonate A LOT better with developers than a list of community suggested fixes.
The developers knows Rose’s defense is crap but they didn’t do anything to fix it that since Vanilla. Unless we suggest them stuff to makes them go “oh! maybe if we do this! or that!” I don’t see them do much to her…
It was a big list of changes that the Dev team have showed us and frankly, I’m quite pleased in the direction it is going. One thing that has surprised me is the lack of effort put into Rose. She’s a great character with arguably “ok” tools but seeing how a lot of characters have been buffed, I (and a lot more people, even those that don’t necessarily main Rose…) didnt understand why you didn’t not offer more for her.
Since Vanilla a lot has been proposed to make Rose better. The biggest change you made was making Rose’s Soul Reflect better but she still had holes in her gameplay. Her offense is somewhat ok, being able to semi-pressure the opponent with tick throw and traps but overall, by having the lowest damage of the game and taking the risk of getting easily countered can lead her to her demise quite fast. This also explains her defense. When Rose is knocked down, she is left with 3 options: Either backdash, attempt to reversal or block which are all bad situations. Her backdash can be Option Selected, her only reversal can be stop my a normal/special move/regular throw/OS/meaty attacks etc and she cannot take pressure well (thus having her in a corner is pretty much the end unless the opponent makes an error). In response to that, you gave her the Soul Satellite, which was perfect for her. But even if that was a very good tool, it more acted like a “band-aid” rather than truly fixing her defense.
When AE came out, I don’t know if it was hate or you though that Rose was OP, if you wanted people to try new characters by nerfing most of the original cast but…Capcom decided to nerf Rose to the point where she didn’t even have a FADC -> ultra unless we used 3 ex bars. Some of her matchups where it was fairly even changed completely…infact she was very appealing as a character. The changes made on Rose really hurt her.
When you announced the balance changes for AE v.2012, most Rose players were pretty excited because since she got nerfed very badly in AE, it was logical that: either a lot of characters would get nerfed to the point were Rose would be “ok” against them (not very likely but it’s still a possibility) or Rose would get buffed (meaning she would get more tools to work with), fixed (meaning that she would finally get better defense options) or both.
After seeing all changes from all the characters. I must say, I tough she would get more than this. Technically she got revert back to super + 1 move from vanilla and 1 more combo ? While people got different properties on their moves from super -> AE and AE -> AE2012, that’s all you can offer to Rose ?
I don’t think Rose needs to be good at everything but I don’t understand how can we think about buffing the hitbox or ken’s target combo and adding 10 dmg to his EX shoryuken for example while we have characters like Rose, Vega, etc who needs more assistance.
Bah you guys continue from here I have class tomorrow morning >_>
If you think Rose got fucked, try the Hawk forums.
I really hope people at those loke tests speak the fuck up, so Capcom can actually do something useful when it comes to buffing these characters. It’s not like anyone’s asking for unreasonable buffs or anything either.
whoaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Dudley? what did dudley get that’s so special? The ONLY useful thing he got was the ST.HK CH back. Everything else is full of gimmicks
EDIT:::
yeah i kno i’m late with this response but i’m reading through all your guys apology changes lol
I completely agree with this statement. And I would add: the more we seems to “understand” the way the developer want rose to be ( a zooning character, “a la” dalhsim) the more the chance that they listen to us. If we keep asking for something crazy ( a shoryuken for example), we won’t be taken seriously. But if we ask for something more “in character” like a crappy reversal ( but still reversal), they may think that our view is somewhat valid.
I’m sure they eared by now that we want ex spiral to be invulnerable, they didn’t want to include it for 3 version, they won’t include it now. We should be creative.
Well I do not know dudley well (i’ve never played it myself) so you must be right, but I thought by going through the list of changes that they were nice buffs…
i thinkw hat cerub said is the worst part that pissed me off. The fact that they do light modifications to hitboxes on characters like ken etc… but rose who sometimes needs meter to finish a bnb (lplkmpspiral) is so fucking stupid.
this game is garbage, capcom doesn’t care.
while were at it all version of soul throw are garbage too.
and god fucking damnit i know its like 4:50 am, and im probably cranky because i worked 12 hours but can every fucking little buff that we suggest stop being a god damn argument.
is there anything I need to change so far ? let me know because I don’t only want my own opinion in this…
I’ll take a stab at it.
There are 4 types of moves that every character has. Normals, Specials, Supers and Ultras.
Normals:
Rose’s normals are all fine. This isn’t an area that really needs changing overall. Her focus attack does deserve mention as the range is exceptionally short making it hard to use beyond absorbing and backdashing.
Specials:
This is the area of issue I feel.
Soul Spark is quite frankly not an overly useful fireball. The start-up and recovery are horrible. While it builds good meter and it does good damage, these are not that useful of qualities. Meter gain in fireball wars isn’t useful when you consider her Soul Reflect LP makes even more meter than using a spark. She could handle fireball wars without even having one in an odd kind of way. So the best use for a fireball for her will be dealing with those who don’t have a fireball, used primarily to zone. But for that purpose, it is inferior and something that I feel should be looked at.
Soul Throw is quite frankly not that useful an anti-air. Without invincibility, it will lose to a variety of jump ins. It is much safer and easier to simple use Cr. HP. Why normal one does not confuses many Rose players. It isn’t a Shoryuken (SRK), while an anti-air, it is not an anti everything like a SRK. This is probably why it does more damage, but that damage isn’t so vast as to run the risk when you could instead do Cr. HP. I would like to see Soul Throw be our go-to anti-air, with Cr. HP being more situational.
Soul Spiral is fine for what it does. The only source of discussion for this is EX Soul Spiral. EX Soul Spiral appears to be our “reversal” akin to the might SRK, while not being one. The issue however is two fold. 1. Start up on it is horrible at 13 frames and make it a long shot on its use and 2. the invincibility wears off 2 frames before it hits so it can be rather unreliable there as well. Couple it with the first issue and it becomes clear why many Rose players find it an issue.
Soul Reflect does its job fine. The additional active frames were a god send to this move. The extra combo ability was nice but not really useful. The only thing I might say here is allow for a better punish combo like HP.Reflect -> EX Soul Throw, but honestly it is a minor complaint and if the other specials were changed, I wouldn’t complain.
Super:
Rose’s Super isn’t the best in the game, but isn’t bad. Easy to combo into, She builds Good meter, no complaints.
Ultras:
This is where I think Rose has issues in SF4. Many characters are defined in a way by how useful their ultras in covering weaknesses/bad-matchups and how they are landed.
Ultra 1 is a very damaging ultra, but is almost impossible to land. While it can be used as an Anti-air, it is a slower start-up ultra meaning you need to really see that jump coming. Since her Focus attack is bad, it is hard to land it that way. While you can land it using 3 EX bars, that is quite costly and I believe only possible in the corner. If it could be landed more easily, it would be a much more useful Ultra and improve Rose overall.
Ultra 2 is a tough subject. On the one hand, it helped get around Roses biggest weakness, horrible defense. It really helped Rose out, but it was a sort of band-aid fix. In that it was a completely busted Wake-up attack that was balanced because it was on Rose. One of the definitions of the game is making guesses, with U2, you didn’t need to guess as Rose. You activated and they either ate a combo or you got up for free. Thats not a fair wake-up tool in a great game sense but worked for Rose. If her defense were addressed, I feel Rose could use this Ultra more for pressure/mix-ups or a rotating defensive hitbox.
What is changed or how is up to Capcom but these I feel define why I think Rose is inferior to the rest of the cast. She has odd trade-offs which don’t really help her. There is a good character in Rose, but it feels like the community and Capcom are almost scared of her for some reason. Yet many Rose players recognize her weaknesses. I hope this sheds some light on why we feel Rose needs more changes to truly be the character we all know she can be.
Feel free to paraphrase, copy or ignore. I hope it helps.
Hey cerberus could you post my list in your unity write up. Its on page five of the what would make rose thread, I would repost it myself but I can’t copy from my phone for some reason and I really don’t want to type all of that again from my phone. Thank you if you do it.
I think they should make U1 completely invincible because getting hit out of it at the point where the opponent should, get hit, is messed up and for u2 i still think it should have a slight damage buff maybe to making the combined damage at 280 instead of 240.
I believe soul throw should be made stronger to the point of it being able to now stop most of the moves that stop it unless it is a safe jump.
Will soul spark it wouldn’t hurt if it had 3-4 frames faster start up.
I was thinking about her soul piede change, I’m happy its been restored. However, I was thinking maybe they could take it further. For example in the corner she can anti-air the opponent and do a follow up soul throw afterward, however this puts her into the corner. I was thinking the developers could allow her to special cancel soul piede into soul throw, so she could do this anywhere. I think a change like this would give her more opportunities to do damage but it isn’t something that seems overpowering. Actually if she could cancel any of her far normals like far standing HK or far standing HP into specials that would be interesting too.
I rather have U1 to have faster startup than having more invincibility. Even with more invincibility, its still going to be hard to react to a jump in. More startup on U1 = better chances of beating far away jump ins, empty jump ins, punish fireballs easier, and possible to punish Hondas HP Headbutt on block?