To be honest, I wouldn’t be surprised if Rose gets ignored even later since there’s a lack of dedicated or at least 1 constant solid Rose in Japan to get feedback from. America and other countries can only do so much and if we’re already a small number trying to get noticed well…
Im sold on Capcom not knowing what the fuck they want to do with Rose and just fiddle with shit she already had/needed/ignore.
Do you people forget that Yun and Yang were no where near as good in the AE location test as in the final build? Remember when Dudley was considered #1 in SSF4? Omg remember when people were claiming that Guile sucked in SSF4? Or when Vanilla came out Bison was considered better than Sagat. I say stop bitching and wait and see what happens. I think if during the location tests if she underperforms they might make her stronger in the final build. Not to mention any buffs/nerfs they haven’t already mentioned. Rose is a very solid character, with a few tweaks she could easily be top tier, I think right now she’s headed in the right direction. Let’s just see what happens.
amen.
c’mon guys, rose needs help. don’t pretend that being the unsafe version of chun-li is good enough.
no its ok, according to a certain member of this thread she’s fine and solid and we don’t know how to play her and everything we say is wrong blah blah blah.
can you guess who I am talking about?
Although it is true that as far as I know no one here has seen 2012 footage of Rose (1match) to even know what other changes may be present.
Been 2 years people have been saying this. Always been: Oh people stop bitching Rose might get better in the final build etc etc etc… As a result we got U2 as a Band-Aid (Aka Capcom said: yeah Rose has a problem but we seriously have NO idea what to do about her). They removed it (because majority of community said it was too powerful/cheap). Then…nothing else. So after knowing for 2 years in 3 different versions of the game that Rose has a problem, I’m pretty sure 100% of the Rose community were waiting to see if Rose got a decent reversal instead of a +4 c.mk on hit.
If they do not want to give her a true reversal maybe they could enhance the current version of normal spirals so that for instance HK spiral connects on hit from anywhere from a C.mk or C.MP.
The same for our Fireballs that can connect only from our normals from a very deceptive range (or event not at all in most case, the one connecting being LP soul spark which is far from being safe even on hit…
Also some more active frames on certain moves, like sweep.
Regarding EX spiral and assuming that they do not want to make it a true reversal, then maybe we could have it safer on block.
@Cerberusfx -Ibuki:
Well, it’s interesting to check out what Capcom could have thought. I went to look for a move with following properties (considering we add 1 extra frame of invulnerability to EX drill):
- fireball invincible until hit
- strike invincible until hit
- throw invincible until hit
A lot of people have these moves, and they are usually known as reversals since they break all offensive options:
Looking at these moves they actually fall into two categories:
- moves that hit fast, but have low reach
- moves that hit slower (above 6 frames) , but have longer reach
So Rose would fall into the second category with her move, as it has reach of** 1.7 (see hitbox data) when it first hits and goes active 6-frames till 2.7.**
The 1.7 reach is actually the reach her C.MK and S.HP has, bit further than S.MK and bit shorter than S.HK. Her startup at 13 frames means you can not react to it consistently.
I have been able to find 1 such move with the same properties and first-frame reach: Sagat EX SRK. But it has two distinct disadvantages: it has no further reach than inital hit, and it has extremely bad recovery. This makes it a very unsafe poke for Sagat, while Rose can use it with the properties it has as a safe poke.
You see, due to the recovery of only -6 on hit it can actually be unpunishable at the right distance. Granted, that distance has you hitting the opponent without the invincibility properties, but you are already in active so you’ll most likely trade if they did anything. In your favor too as it knocks down.
I have yet to find a move that has properties like the proposed EX drill. So I guess there is a reason why Capcom wants Rose not to have this one. Likely it will kill fireball zoning, and it will kill footsies. In a safe way. Rose with four bars would be able to apply completely safe pressure 4 times that wns fromp anything except other EX moves that have to be done blindly as a counter.
I actually downloaded hitbox videos to verify this so please argue 
@cerberusfx: this is not about it being overpowered as a reversal, others have better reversals. And it is not about being the best fireball invincible move either. But due to all the properties it has, it might just be the best EX move in the game overall.
different? Dude they were dumb as fuck in the location tests too. Not much even changed from the AE location tests last I remember. (most changes to characters in loc tests stayed like that in AE)
Can you tell me what’s the range on yun’s Ex shoulder ? It would be interesting to compare the 2 of them
It might. Or it might not. Like Rose’s U2 when it was 1st introduced and people were like: omg that sucks. After the game was out it had become the “absolute ultra for everything (reversal/combo/chip/gtfo-move etc)” and people were assuming Rose was top tier. By the end of the game people had figured out some ways to counter her and she instantly back to between mediocre-ok character. Even if it becomes one of the best EX moves of the game. Honestly, does it matter ? Specially if its Rose ? Seth has the best DP of the game, You cant punish Dan’s tatsu on block, Chun li has 7 normals that have 3 frame start up + 1 frame super, does that make them OP or Top tier ? Arguably, does making Rose have one very good or (let’s say it) best EX move in the game in term of invincibility (because dmg and stun are ridiculously low for a EX move) would be way too good ?
EX shoulder is not relevant in the comparison as it’s only projectile invulnarable. There are many moves like that that go fast and far, but they lose from active normals. EX drill would not. I cannot find the reach as there is no hitbox video data for AE.
I’m not implying that Rose does not deserve a good buff somewhere. I would have loved something unique again, like U2 was in super. AE2012 buffs are usable but not that exciting. Pity.
@cerberusx
I’m pretty sure Rose was always high B even towards the end of super. If you really look at it, imagine how much better we’d be if they gave back her u2? I don’t know bout you, but having a ‘fuck you’ to mixups is pretty awesome. U2 really does improve her matchups across the board.
I think everyone in here agreed that rose needs a buff. What me and acku are trying to do now is play the devil’s advocate here. That way, progress is made and we don’t get ‘yes man’ shit up in here thinking that’s all there is to it, problem solved. So…
There are ways to fix the problem if they’re afraid EX SPIRAL might be too good. Take away 1 frame of blockstun. That’ll be HUGE. Being -7 for 6 frames means that it’ll ALWAY be punishable on anything but the last two frames. At that point, there should be no complaints. People can take their ‘just block’ and shove it up theres.
Why don’t they give hk spiral more block stun? Making it -3 on block will allow it to range from -3 to +2 depending on when you hit it. Also, it won’t be so broken considering if you want it to +2 on block, your usually going to leave yourself pretty vulnerable to reversals due to the hk spiral’s slow startup.
If they’re not going to cover rose’s holes, they make her strong points STRONGER. More damage on spiral. 1 more blockstun on only the HK version.
I think soul spiral needs a damage buff and ex needs to be an actual reversal. At least give more damage on medium and hard soul spiral.
Another thing is to give back her cr.mp from super back and if they won’t give her that at least fix her ultra 1 up and give ultra 2 like 25-50 more points of damage.
What i mean for soul spiral damage buff is.
lk soul spiral-100
mk soul spiral-110
hk-soul spiral-120
ex-120 or 125
For u2 each orb can do 160-175 damage so if people decided to poke they get punished for it. (I’ve seen people try to push me away with u2 and i just sit there and they get hit.)
This doesn’t have to happen but they can reduce soul spark by 3-4 frames, make Cr.hp less punishable on hit and return vanilla sweep.
(This isn’t much of a problem because i think i am using this move wrong but is there something wrong with the angle of the projectile that gets hit by HP reflect?)
Wow this thread is making her sound like Hakan in the last 2 versions. She’s really not that bad of a character. Yes she has weaknesses, but player skill does play a factor in this game. In SSF4, even if she was considered “C” tier. I can only think of a handful of characters that gave her trouble, at least for me.
Eh. More damage or block stun changes to existing Spirals is kind of pointless to the discussion lol. That being she’s been free on wake up for the better part of 2 years sans our lovely time with Super.
All jokes aside, EX Spiral shouldnt be able to blow through FBs at will and theres really no need for them to increase the invul if they allow it to hit earlier during the existing invul frames to be usable as a proper reversal.The only reason people are asking for increased invul is due to being hit between the frames where the invul runs out and the hit box kicks in. Increased invul alone wont solve the problem at all as you can still be safe short meatied to death on wakeup without fear of a reversal.
The move simply needs to be reworked and tested if it’s ever going to be useable as a reversal and if they are willing to spend the time on it, removing the gap between the invul and active frames is the place to start.
If they arent, just give her back U2 lol.
I only use EX spiral when my opponent starts to get cute with their frame traps or tick throws. Using a reversal on wakeup is a bad idea unless you have a really fast reversal and/or meter to FADC. She doesn’t need a fast reversal, just one that doesn’t get stuffed by frame traps. Not that I would complain if they just got rid of the vulnerable frames all-together. :>
Rose isn’t as bad as a lot of people make her out to be, but she definitely has glaring design flaws that need to be addressed. Then again, most of the cast does.
I wouldn’t put her on the same level as hakan, but think for a second about all her matchups. Besides a maybe 2 or 3 characters, I don’t see her having a glaring advantage against the cast members that matter. Her only real advantages are over guile, sagat maybe, and cammy maybe? She loses to or is tied with the rest of the cast for the most part. I am of course disregarding the shit tier characters in this conversation. Having an advantage over dan and hakan won’t matter much in the grand scheme of things.
Rose has multiple matchups in her favor, IMO, and even if what you said is true, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. What makes you think there’s something wrong when a character has a bunch of 5-5 matchups and a few more 4-6 matchups than 6-4 matchups in a game with 39 characters?
If I don’t get some good rose changes soon I’mma bite ono.
Since you asked me to argue…
I appreciate the exact information about the ranges and hitboxes- I haven’t looked but am sure that you aren’t making anything up. It is interesting to know the numbers. However, you’re focusing on certain aspects of the moves and ignoring others where it supports your argument.
After rereading this, I realize you’re saying that the proposed spiral is a better poke that Sagat’s EX TU… I thought you were comparing them as reversals. Of course ex spiral is a better poke, even now without the change it is.
You are talking about this proposed new spiral like it would be perfect due to pieced together facts taken out of context. You say that due to its recovery, it CAN be safe if blocked. That is true. But then you take that and jump to the conclusion that “Rose with four bars would be able to apply completely safe pressure 4 times that wins from anything except other EX moves that have to be done blindly as a counter.” At the range that it is safe when blocked, you even said yourself that invincibility frames would be over, so it would in no way be completely safe and ‘kill footsies’. From that range, the only difference would be Rose MIGHT trade with more pokes, and MIGHT make it through fast fireballs that would have hit her before, but that is not even a guarantee. It would not kill fireball zoning at all.
No 2 moves have the same attributes… it just depends what you argue is important in what situation. I could say that you have yet to find a move with the same properties as EX TU (fast startup, long range, fully invincible until hit- all by your description).
I don’t think anyone could truthfully say they think the new spiral would be the best EX move in the game overall. I enjoy the debate, but I can only believe you’re arguing but don’t actually think its true.
I think we can all agree that Capcom thinks it’s better than Rose deserves though. :sad: I stand by my opinion that players in general don’t like Rose, so Capcom thinks anything new for her will be seen more negative rather than more positive.