Hey, thanks for trying to make a change SylHar! That’s the kind of shit we should be doing tbh. i hope Rose gets something else before patch comes out.
it’s old news :P.
If the reflect hits them while they are in air and bounces them at a high arch; you can combo a soul throw off of it. 
im just saying i find it cool not that its new lol wish hp reflect was a viable anti air.
It’s just a tiny bit too slow unfortunately :(.
never thought about this and you might just be right.
A lot of people have fireball invincible EX specials, thats true, but all of them seem to have +15 frames before they reach the opponent.
Abel EX wheelkick: 17
Chun EX hazanshu: 20
Ibuki EX neckbreaker: 15
Vega roll: 20
and then EX Drill: 13
You see, that is why Capcom thinks different about things. They consider all these facts while we tend to overlook. To make sure EX drill does not fully negate fireball zoning at mid-range, they would need to add either extra startup or extra recovery. That would either break the use as combo-tool or reversal completely. Or adjust the reach, which would surely kill tactics.
So yes, they can’t give you that extra frame. Simply because it goes too fast too far. Which is ok.
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This is the same situation that it was for U2 of Rose: it would be a perfect design for Rose but given to any other character it would be too much
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Yun’s EX shoulder punch has same startup as Rose’s ex spiral and recovers faster and same advantage on block. I know they recently increased the hurtbox on it for physical attacks but with Rose’s arsenal, which arent that powerful, it would fit her quite well, specially for a move that only does 100 damage (EX on top of that) I would expect them to give it more properties.
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Btw isnt blanka’s ex blanka balls and bison’s ex psycho crusher travels more than fullscreen ? Won’t the Bison player, at the right distance, will be able to use cr.lk right after ex psycho crusher even if it says -16 on block ? I know I had times where I could just grab him right after I block his ex PC but other times his cr.lk would come out instead. If this is correct (someone needs to tell me…) then Rose’s EX SS will create the same situation as Bison’s EX PC for the exception that it will not go through the character, making it easier to punish IMO
I was focusing on the anti-fireball aspect but EX spiral is not a fireball invincible or armored move, it’s an invincible reversal that wins from either attacks, projectiles and throws. So throwing it out when it would be fully invincible (giving it that 1 extra frame) would make the move way too strong as an offensive (poking) move. There are AFAIK no moves that are fully invincible that travel that far, that fast.
The missing frame on it makes it a lot more likely to trade or even lose when you throw it out there, which is ok for such a dangerous move.
Neither Blanka EX ball or Bison EX PC have that kind of invincibility, but indeed they do have anti-fireball properties (actually there is no property in SF4 that loses to fireballs but wins to normals, only the other way around)
The trouble Capcom has in Super was that they indeed wanted to give her a reversal, but couldnt because not only her defense would be better (not great, but better), but her offense may have been murder. Like Yun now has TBH. So they gave her the weird U2, and stepped back on it in AE
It’s designed to be an anti-fireball, anti throw, reversal armor breaking move.
But 2 missing frames kills it.
Yet none of those characters moves you listed can be used as a poke/rushing tool, which when viewed from that point might indeed be a little too good. Never considered that before…
What I want to point out is that I don’t see how POWERFUL can this move be for ROSE. Its…Rose! Its not like you are giving Ex Soul Spiral to Oni or to Yun ._. She has mediocre to OK offense / almost non-existant to mediocre defense / 2-3 poking tools / mediocre damage…she’s not complete like 99% of the cast ! Why people (and Capcom) won’t allow her to be complete to a certain extent ???
Like I agree some character dont have ALL the tools to be good all around. But they still have other attributes!
Dudley cannot really go in during matches but once he’s in he can destroy you if you dont block well
Cody has terrible wake up options but he has very good damage / frame traps + pressure / very good AAs
My answer: People (and Capcom) don’t like Rose. Capcom probably went: WTF why did we put rose in sf4 when she was 1st introduced
Ok well since we are so afraid of making changes to EX Spiral I guess Rose stays as free as a naked baby on wake up in 2012.
My guest is that Capcom is afraid of rose. They think that she’s one buff away from being broken.
IMHO, rose has one of the best zoning tools in the game. close to dahlsim but with a much better offence. look at it that way: she has everything, normal wise. from the hit that make wiff standing strike ( cmk), the one that punish low ( mk) and throw ( close mk). she’s has anti air from large range (close hk, chp),… far hit ( hp and hk). godlike hit box on confirmable low ( clk). and a way to change distance fast in defense or offense ( dash, slide, soul piede). she’s got tools to win any fireball war.
She has two thing again her for that: low damage and, she’s free on wake up
Capcom think of rose has a keepaway /zooning character. giving rose a reversal, in their mind, is like giving dalhsim a shoryuken: create a charac that is, by design, broken.
And in theory they’re right. A zooning godess like rose with good/easy way to get away from mix up ?
I don’t think that she will be broken that easily but sadly it’s their opinion that matter.
yup, but like it or not, ex drill is a rushing tool too.
That why I’m preferring to “ask” for an invulnerable ex reflect as wake up option: the move can’t really be used in other application than wake up ( and reflect obviously). So it’s easier to see the implication of the change.
the problem is that Rose has been like this for the past 2 years and the majority still dont see her as a viable character. She doesnt even go far in tournaments. Capcom needs to redesign some of her stuff that’s why.
I could say Chun li looks similar in terms of normals (good pokes/ hit confirms etc), her reversal isnt all that great. But she still seems more complete / viable than Rose…
I was under the impression you understood the point of Acku’s post since you quoted it…
This^ was my next thought
Chun doesn’t just look similar, she’s nearly identical on paper. But Better in every way.
I really don’t get this argument about EX Spiral being a rushing tool. Sure it would be a good poke for footsies but so is an EX Fireball or bunch of other moves that act similarly. I mean where else do you add that defensive power? EX Fireball?
Rose was at her best at the start of super because her biggest issue was somewhat addressed, but as time went on people began to see all the other holes in her game plan. That is why she went down to C tier in the last list I saw at the end of Super.
I’m not sure why people somehow thing Rose would be broken with these buffs. Seriously, it seems like not only are the Devs somehow terrified of Rose, so is the community.
We could give Rose Ryu’s Firball.
We could give Rose DP invincibility on her Soul Throw.
We could give Rose the ability to combo into her U1.
We could give Rose a higher damage punish combo.
We could give Rose Ex Spiral 11frames of start-up (fully invincible)
And…she would still probably only be B tier. Rose isn’t trash can bad, but she isn’t that good either. I have hope for Capcom to make good changes to her in the next test…
Edit: Looking it over, I clearly exaggerated. So take it more as me making a point than being serious.
so a wake up ex reflect that would be completely invincible on wake up that pushes the opponent far from us ? I honestly think this is not a bad idea but only if they upgrade the damage / stun and gives more pushback…lol seems weird in my head…I need to see it in action lol
Or they could give it variable properties depending on the 2 buttons used…push away or pop up (hp version) for link into soul throw;)
Acku has a decent point, but how far does EX spiral really go in 13 frames? After then it would be vulnerable. My guess is it would be about shoto sweep range. So its not like its fully invincible for the distance that vega’s roll or abel’s wheel kick go… it would still only be a better option on wakeup. Anti-fireball from mid range, you’ll still just eat the fb after the invincibility wears off. If it was a fast tiger shot etc, then even the current spiral would work most of the time. We’re taking 1-2 frames… I don’t think she moves forward fast enough for that to turn imbalanced.
As everyone said, Rose has decent tools that can win at mid level. She won’t win any tournaments, I think everyone can agree to that, but it still doesn’t stop people from hating and bitching up a storm whenever they lose. Stupid pokes, stupid backdash, stupid throw, stupid ultra 1, stupid ultra 2. They don’t care where she is on the tier, they just hate it and bitch. So maybe Capcom would rather piss off the few Rose players by leaving her alone than piss off the world by making her better.
And that’s why I think people wont have a choice but to learn to BLOCK against Rose! Just like when Bison pressures you in corner! BLOCK! Its that simple!
- Yun’s EX shoulder travels FAR too! but it still has the same startup/ faster recovery as Rose AND its a rushing/punishing tool! (Making the “rushing tool” argument quite invalid if you look at it that way)
- Even if Yun’s Ex shoulder’s physical hittable box got increased during the projectile invincibility, all he will needs to do is to wait for you to throw a fireball. The animation is so quick that it will still be impossible for you to block it the moment you throw a fireball. The only way would be you being at the right distance and being able to FADC your fireball or not being in range of his EX shoulder. This is exactly the same thing for Rose. Regardless if its a rushing tool or not, by knowing her EX soul spiral has complete invincibility, why would you throw a fireball in a range where she can hit you ?