Balance isn’t everything. Wiggling the stick around to get special moves is fun. Doing Shen BnBs (or something similar) where you do repeated QCB/QCF motions to make the guy on-screen do wild haymakers creates more of a connection to what you’re doing physically and what’s happening on screen than just hitting buttons would.
There are MOBA characters with rekkas, and I’ve never been taken out of the experience just because I’m mashing Q to do them.
That’s not really a good comparison, though – MOBAs already have a far more abstract interface (since they’re derived from Warcraft III), complete with a zoomed-out roaming camera and auto-attack, and they don’t seek to put the player “in the character’s shoes” like other character action games do.
A better example would be “would DMC 4 be a better or worse game if Nero’s mid-swing Exceed charges were automatic instead of requiring an accurately timed input?” Or “would Quake III be better or worse if the game had one-button automatic rocket-jumps like Painkiller does?” Or “would Super Metroid be a better or worse game if wall-jumps and infinite bomb-jumps didn’t require precise execution?” I can’t imagine anyone not answering “worse” to those.
I don’t think anyone is suggesting that SF should get rid of motion inputs.
Super metroid’s wall jumps are unnecessarily wonky.
I actually find this interaction less interesting than the one where you just have to read your opponent raw, without taking cues from his movement. Not saying that the above isn’t interesting, but the hype in fighting games for me is in the prediction and commitment. Your other points were good though.
Do they really? Ryu’s super is both more powerful and easier to do in UMVC3.
Would DMC be a better series if Dante controlled the same (or similar) as he does in UMVC3? Would quake be better if you had to do QCF motions to reload? I’m not gonna touch the Metroid analogy though since I don’t play that series.
He’s already got moves that require 66 and 44 motions, 360s, 720s, 464646 inputs, and even frame-perfect jump inputs. I don’t see where quarter circle would be terribly harmful.
I hope we can go beyond a long tried argument and just look at other aspect of Rise of thunder, Like the load outs, how the’ll handle f2p. how the video with Seth killian mentioning it’ll be “pc exclusive for now”.
Honestly the input thing is not problem if the base game is design with it in mind.
Games like Super street fighter 4 3ds, Bleach DS series, and 炫斗之王 Xuan Dou Zhi Wang Group handle this poorly because those games were not design those control in mind.
But when you have games like Smash, Phantom Breaker, Samurao Deeper kyo (ps1), ect. These game from the ground up where made with these input in mind and usually handle this with more care than earlier mention one. I’m sure rising thunder are doing the same. whether they good job is up for debate but the concept of fighter being design this is not the issue.
Highly disagree!
We’ve already been through this arguments before. Execution is a horrible balancing method because it factors less at the highest level of play. You’re always going to find someone who can do things like standing 720s consistently that it almost doesn’t matter.
If a move is so broken that you think it needs a complex input, it’s just flat out broken whether or not it has a complex input.
I’m always outspoken about lowering entry execution barriers, but holy fuck 1 button inputs?
Why not make it turn-based too so new players don’t get stressed out too much?
The mechanical execution is a part of these games too. It shouldnt be retardedly hard, but 1-button inputs?
Come on…
Hmm if you think about it the cool-downs are conceptually the inverse of a charge move…
Yo, I never said that the idea was to make powerful moves more ‘complex’ in order to balance it. I’m just saying that if someone can walk forward with Honda and Ultra 1 with only a single button press (1 frame of input), it would be very difficult to play against because you would have to design your entire playstyle to avoid getting hit with it. Same thing with any other character, like Dee Jay’s Ultra 2. However, these concepts are relative to the game they come from, which is why I said that in RT you won’t see a super that goes fullscreen though fireballs and takes half your life bar with a button press. My whole goddamned point was not that single button press specials/supers are bad, but that inputs in other modern fighters are not needlessly complex/impossible to learn/only for pro players. They have a design that limits your options in order to counter for their respective strength, and this is particularly visible regarding most moves that require charge.
Look, what I honestly hope happens with this game is that it will draw people not ordinarily interested in fighting games into the genre, and then when they start getting the hang of things, they’ll open up to other fighters like SFV when it comes out.
I would argue that this is only true for charge inputs and 720s in neutral (and even then, only insofar as standing 720s are impossible in the input system unbuffered). I can’t think of any other input that limits your options beyond “I need to learn to do this reliably.”
If that means more people playing more games I’d be down for that, but from my understanding when people say that it usually means “more people playing street fighter” so fuck that.
That’s no different from playing against Chun in 3S where she can hit you with SA2 out of almost any mistake you do. Actually, most supers in that game act like that (and same with SFV) since they’re mostly all command motions now with no charge.
Is DmC a better game because they made it easier to play?
I think his point is just that like a double quarter circle move at neutral comes out at least six frames after the person starts to input it as opposed to a 1-button move that comes out 1 frame after they start to input it. So whatever you were trying to throw it out against you have to have predicted or reacted to 5 frames earlier in the scenario where it has a double quarter circle, and not having that is definitely a buff to the move, and you may have to nerf something else about it to make up for that compared to how it could be with that extra 5 frames, or at least you’re not going to design things exactly the same when you have that in mind.
Normally you are pretty on point dev, but let it go, you got it horribly wrong and I don’t feel like writing a rant on why.
There is room for a spectrum of fighting games of varying difficulty/complexity. SF can stay near the top of the difficulty pyramid, Rising Thunder will be lower down on the scale, slightly above Smash maybe. Can we stop arguing about this and talk about the game?
Solvable by making supers blockable after the super flash.
Don’t start this argument all over again. Pagaes upon pages have already been written on why execution as a means of balancing is dumb.
If any casual picks up the game and faces an experienced player they’re going to get bodied. That should be the case with any well designed game. That’snot the point. The point is that they should be able to play intelligently against a player of similar skill rather than simply flailing around. Ideally, they should also be able to learn how to be a better player with hours of play rather than months.