It gives an opportunity cost to using a special without necessarily tying that to recovery frames / meter consumption.
Game seems to have a maximum amount of juggle hits you can go for too, it seems to display that counter during combos (I saw a 1/5).
Let me throw a theoretical at you. One character has a special move that they can use that is frame advantage and you can link off of it, and it keeps your opponent grounded. With cooldowns, this is no problem. You can do it once to extend a combo and then you need to do something else. No cooldowns however, and you can do it forever or extend your ground series a lot longer.
Also, there is something keeping you from juggling until the cool down is finished. There appears to be a 5 hit juggle limit. Watch the footage again, right under the combo counter when someone gets launched there’s a 1/5 counter. That’s another thing, in a lot of games you can juggle with a single move over and over again to get max damage like Hugo clap for instance. With a cool down timer, your juggles CANNOT be a single move over and over again to maximize damage, it kinda forces some creativity in you.
Rising Thunder-Wisdom of the Crowd Guide
In that case, everything stopping it from being an infinite is just tied to the moves properties. There’s nothing inherrent in the system that prevents the move from being used in an infinite if a way to get around the cool down is found. It’s not a true combo limiting system in the way that 3S juggle limit, Skullgirls IPS, etc. are.
The game has a 5 hit juggle limit, and only 2 roman cancels…
Updated the aforementioned guide with details about the roman cancel system.
I think what it mostly comes down to is that until your execution of all your character’s tools is somewhat reliable, you don’t even get an opportunity to meaningfully experience the rest of what a game is about. And taking out special inputs removes a step in the process that a lot of brand new players end up having to kind of get stuck on and spend a boring amount of time with.
There’s a lot of different things you need to level up at to be good at a given game, and there’s a worthwhile distinction to be made between them. There’s work in the form of time spent in training mode practicing pulling off tech, work in the form of learning basically rote information (what’s your frame advantage after blocking a particular move, what’s your optimal combo after a certain confirm, etc.), and work in the form of improving your strategies and habits.
The first two of those amount to basically homework that you sit and do by yourself that I think a lot of people (reasonably) find boring. The third of those happens by actually playing matches, which makes it kind of inherently the most fun part of getting good at a game.
If you can decrease the amount of time people have to spend with the other two things, I think you’ll decrease the level of patience and dedication a player needs to start getting decent at your game, and I don’t think that’s a bad thing to shoot for as a game designer. It will still require a lot of patience and dedication for someone to stay truly competitive, but for most fighting games the level of patience and dedication it requires to get to the point where you’re even playing the same game as a decent player is massive, and I think lowering that bar somewhat can make room for more people, especially people from other competitive game scenes, to get into fighting games more easily and get to experience the parts of the game that make them actually interesting.
That mostly applies if the overall execution barrier is lower in this game, though, which removing special move inputs doesn’t inherently accomplish. Smash for example doesn’t have any joystick motions for moves but that doesn’t stop Melee and Project M from having way harder execution than a lot of games that do.
But removing special move inputs, even if the execution in your game ends up being as hard as any other game, can at least increase the number of people who feel like they can actually play, as I think is exemplified by how many more people play Smash casually than other fighters. So it might at least get more people playing the game if nothing else.
We’re running in circles with this idea, so refer to my previous posts. I feel bad that I’ve occupied so much space here, so I wanna keep this thread mainly about updates to the game rather than arguing over input philosophy. If people really feel so strongly about it, I’d be happy to bring it up in another thread, but I want to focus on the game itself now.
I like the Roman Cancel concept. I hope it allows for some fireball > RC > cross up shenanigans or combos out of uppercut. I’m assuming it works like Ken’s v-trigger in SFV where you cancel into a run out of recovery frames. I worry about the concept that variations unlock over time, because some of the better variations will be hidden behind that playwall and make it difficult for players new to a character or to the game. They should all be available from the start as a default.
Any word on the system requirements yet? I’m thinking about playing the slutty one.
Was replying to the posts about cooldowns being a sort of system wide combo limiting tool. Not anything about the system itself.
I saw a slot for super on the results screen although there werent any alternate supers listed. Maybe thats something they plan on adding in the future.
This does not deserve its own thread. Merging.
Coming from a 3S player, I really love what this game is trying to achieve. Execution does not teach you how to properly use a move. Using the move in the right situations does. Removing the execution allows people to use the move more often and see the benefits and consequences quickly and clearly, rather than focusing on the move itself. **Once you understand WHY and WHEN to do special moves, moving onto another game is just the matter of replacing that one button with a series of inputs. The people that found that too hard are usually people that have NEVER played a traditional fighting game in their life or don’t have the MUSCLE MEMORY nor COMMITMENT to actually LEARN them JUST TO PLAY THE GAME. **Honestly, even if there are people who find it difficult to do a z motion (which I wholeheartedly admit is difficult for a beginner using a fightstick or pad), that should not be a reason to not allow them the experience of playing a fighting game at their full potential where execution is not an issue. Another thing to note is that I started playing on a keyboard where execution is easy for an avid user. Moving onto a fightstick was really difficult for my left hand. But its because I already knew how to play the game that I was able to invest in a fightstick and put the time in to perfect my execution. At that time, its not about learning the game anymore, its JUST execution only. Learning HOW to play a fighting game WHILE learning to execute moves is difficult and thats what turns most people away from the genre and explains the success of LoL and Smash. I daresay if you’re good at this game, you’ll know how to play most traditional fighters. Rather than being stuck not knowing WHAT to do, players that trasition to other fighting games will just ask HOW to do them. Instead of asking themselves should I dp or tatsu in this situation, it becomes I DEFINITELY need to dp here, but HOW. In the first case, the player doesnt have any clue on what to do and will probably end up mashing buttons or throwing out the move he knows rather than the move he needs. In the second case, the fundamentals are there and only the execution is missing. In fact, the second case is where most people that play fighting game stand. They UNDERSTAND the game, so the only thing they have to do is build their execution when they switch to other ones and this is the most important thing that people that play fighting games have. More importantly, most people can’t just plow through training sessions just to play a game. Its like sitting through 30 minutes of credits to watch a movie you’ve never seen before, but people that have already seen the movie know its worth the wait. Theres a reason why the fighting game community is so small compared to other games/genres. If nothing is done to stop it, fighting games will eventually die out, just like darkstalkers. We need to attract new blood into the scene. The only thing this game needs is a parry mechanic which revolves around prediction and timing to add an extra layer of depth, rather than memorizing inputs, which would allow another level for people to strive for beyond yomi and fundamentals and who are willing enough to put that extra effort in to up their game. Most people that practice combos and links do so because they like the feeling of putting more effort than others and being rewarded in return. A parry mechanic would be just the thing to satisfy combo fiends and execution maniacs (me being one of them). Maybe using parries to reduce cooldowns on moves? It would also lessen the guilt some people would have playing a fighting game that doesn’t require the same commitment to be on the same playing field as pros, while staying within their design philosophy of focusing on the game, fundamentals, and yomi rather than the inputs. It would also be a nice way to seperate itself from the pack while allowing it to stand on its own rather than just being a gateway to other fighting games. Afterall, the ability to generate hype is essential and parries are the easiest way to do that and allow for unexpected comebacks. Though, I don’t think the software is built that flexible to add a new feature such as this, a man can dream. Great idea overall and you can expect me to play the alpha!
I feel like Supers should exempt from the juggle limit. Also multi-hitting special moves should maybe only count as 1 point against the juggle limit. Not sure if that would break the game or not yet lol.
So there’s no downside to easy inputs?
It’s unreasonable to look at one mechanic in a vacuum, you need to look at the systems as a whole and how one affects the other. Obviously the cooldown system is doing multiple jobs, but it’s doing a lot more than just preventing spam. If it was just preventing spam, you wouldn’t need to make cooldowns longer than about 2 seconds, however:
The cooldown system is clearly being used as a means to limit combo capabilities. Even if it was just stopping you from juggling with the same move over and over again, which you wouldn’t even need this quote to figure out was a thing, it’s still limiting what your combo options are. And no, juggle until the cooldown wears off is not an answer, because as stated, you have a 5 hit juggle limit, which stops you from doing that to a great degree, and you’re still not allowed to juggle the same move over and over again like you are capable of doing in other games.
So, the game is trying to make specials and stuff really easy? Cool, outside of Smash there’s not a lot of games that do that, so it’ll be interesting to see how it turns out. Maybe I’ll have something to play with my friends again.
I know the question is rhetorical, but I’ll answer anyways: yes, there is definitely a downside. It’s way easier to whiff punish / go through fireballs with supers in NRS-games (or even SFxT) compared to something with more difficult motion supers, and it removes some interesting interactions (“He’s buffering his ultra predicting a fireball. Cool, I’ll sweep him since he’s not blocking”). It also makes it more difficult to screw up on defense because you don’t risk mistiming your DP and being hit during a non-blocking motion (and it also makes DP mashing easier =V ).
Then there’s the whole “if all the moves are easy and everyone does them the game becomes boring”-sentiment that I don’t agree with at all, but it’s not an invalid opinion.
Still, having simple inputs could work out well in this game. It could also be completely terrible. Depends a lot on how the game turns out.
source?
Funny enough, I have a friend that loves fighting games, but only plays single player modes (a.k.a. casual player). And he haves the opinion that fighting games shouldn’t have 1 button specials/supers, because “powerful moves should require work or the game would be too easy”. While he can be a bit mistaken on that sentence, it’s really interesting the fact that someone that really doesn’t care about competition is defending execution barriers.
For me, getting rid of DP, QCF, 360’s, etc just to make the game more acessible is dumb. It’s possible to make a good game without these inputs but you have to be very careful for the game don’t turn into unplayable shit (have anyone ever played Super Street Fighter 4 for 3DS?). The only execution barrier that isn’t needed are 1 frame links and everything else that makes BnBs needlessly hard to do (combos should be the easy part in a fighter).
Also, new players need to realize that training mode doesn’t hurt. Just listen your favorite songs or talk with your friends on skype while you practice your combos and time will pass without you noticing.
I don’t like the massive amounts of impact freeze.
As for the execution vs strategy argument, I don’t really care as long as the game doesn’t get in my way. I mean, look at Melty Blood. That game has super easy execution. To the point why I often get mistaken inputs because the system is too lax. Same as in Xrd. I don’t know how many times I get accidental Secret Garden with Millia when I wanted something else. In SFIV with Blanka, I try to go from crouch block into walking electricity, and then I get LP ball. In cases like these, the easier execution makes it harder for me to play the game. I’d rather learn to play without an easy input system, than learn to play around it.
No they won’t.
Yes there is, in that the moves must lose total overall power to compensate for input speed and consistency. A move like Ultimate Killer Head Ram should not be a one button input.