I never even mentioned tactics. People are looking for anything this the game to add depth and little has been found. and yes tactics add depth… they add options which add depth…it’s not that hard to understand. So far the game is a projectile spamming sheild fest, and i’d be willing to bet my yearly salary that this trend will only get worse as actual prize money gets put up at these tourneys.
So how long will it take before you admit that brawl is generally a shallow experience? People are spouting off about 2 months, and all that, but seriously i’m confident that most of the game has been explored. you have no idea what kind of people post at swf. It doesn’t matter because once the tourney scene develops you will see with your own eyes
dawg… im sorry but you clearly don’t know what you are talking about.
DI couldn’t get you out of every combo. You obviously never played anyone good or else you’d know that regardless of DI, they will combo you. LMAO you’re trying to tell me that mew2king pulls of combos on pc, ken, and kdj because they play stupid and don’t DI. rofl… ridiculous man. Did you even play melee or did you just watch because im beginning to wonder.
Tactics don’t necessarily add strategic depth, and neither do options. All you need to do to verify that is play Third Strike and then play Super Turbo. Parrying and lots of overheads make for way more offensive and defensive options, but the strategy is a lot weaker and mixups are much more important as a result.
It’ll take a while for me to admit that Brawl is shallow, if it is. A very, very tiny portion of the game has been explored, it can take years for a game to be fully explored and for the tier lists to be fully discovered. This has been true in every game, from Super Turbo to Marvel 2 to Third Strike to Melee, and it might be true in Brawl as well.
And the fact that so many people are playing Brawl doesn’t mean that it’s being intelligently explored. Only a very small portion of the Smash crowd at C3 yesterday seemed like they’d bothered to really think about the game they were playing. The top players obviously did, but like I said, most everyone else just depended on mixups, obvious crap, and things they’d seen other people do. I’m not saying they’re stupid, only that it doesn’t seem like they’re really bothering to think intelligently about Brawl and what they can do with it. Who knows whether the sample of Smash players yesterday was representative of the community generally, but if it was, or if it’s actually smarter (which might be true, because this is one of the best areas for Smash in the US), then I don’t think the number of people really exploring Brawl is very large, and I think it’ll take quite a while to figure everything out.
@jobus - ummm I could drill shine with fox in melee. I can 0-death with every character except samus in SSB64. so no.
I just hated how people could do gay shit with fox/falco and beat really smart players just by doing all safe moves. that shit turned off a lot of my friends from not only playing others but playing vs me. they felt the only reason some people were good was because of this stuff, and really I feel that they were right some of the time.
also if you ever fly into DFW airport I’ll money match you $20 ssb64, melee, or brawl doesn’t matter to me. or if you head out to evo same thing. I haven’t (unitl right NOW!) been sitting here hating on you, but from the sounds of it you are just some scrub who sucks all the pros cocks from melee because thats the only game you ever tried to play competitivley and never got good at anything in it aside from pushing L or xr down left/right.
aaaand finally I said CF in melee only has 2 hit combos. everyone else you mentioned doesn’t play CF in tourney. so good job disproving your own point I guess, alongside making no one take anything you say seriously?
Is anyone you noticing the trend in some of these “combo” videos? It’s not just the DI. In one “combo” the victim ( Falco ) simply uses R to tech his fall (don’t know the exact term), but he does that in place, and Falcon rapes him on the recovery frames. Another incident has Link using his wake-up attack too far away, leaving Falcon to finish him off.
I thought a combo was a series of attacks where your opponent can’t do ANYTHING once they’re caught in? If Smash defines combos differently, someone please let me know.
What you don’t realize is that your complaint is similar to what Jobus is saying. He’s simply stating that doing all safe [defensive] moves and tactics is the smartest way to play in Brawl, people just haven’t realized that enough. (even I hope there will be a surprising development that changes this truth, but so far this hasn’t come to fruition.)
Technical Falco/Fox players in Melee are a result of people finally finding out the most efficient forms of combat after years in the metagame and abusing these advantages to the highest degree possible. Finding out the highest degree of advantages will lead to the same result in Brawl… or any fighting game for that matter.
Oh and not getting into the CF combo drama but no player DIs perfectly at all times, even the smartest ones. I don’t see how this is an issue when there’s numerous top player matches that show this.
a lot of smash highlight reels show combos that consist of reading and predicting techs. its an extremely important area in high level. i guess they do define it differently…
um… felix… just admit that captain falcon can combo more than 2 hits. i dont really see how theres any disputing this. I could get a mile long list of video examples consisting of darkrain and isai highlights but i wont.
@shadow - jobus is complaining saying that there aren’t as many offensive options in brawl as there are in melee because of cancels or whatever. i was complaining saying people could make up for being predictable/stupid by practicing pushing l before they land in melee. those are completely different complaints. I have no problem with the way people play brawl now because the people who play smart are the people who are winning.
what the fuck? why bring that into the argument at all? I was saying the most efficient form of fighting for fox/falco made up for not playing smart at lower levels of play. my point still stands?
I am well aware people spam the best attacks. thats like…every fighting game ever rofl.
why say “I’m not going to do x” then do it within the same sentence? if you didn’t want to get into it or point anything out then wouldn’t you just not type up what you think? I always thought it was dumb when people say stuff like “not to be insulting but (insert insult)”.
@kof4life - yea smash people like to think of it differently. I always end up having this argument about it. the game w/ the most actual combos from smash is ssb64.
and yeah that is a tech the falco did.
I’m not trying to beef or anything but I fail to see how l-cancels lead to stupid play. How is it stupid to maximize the usefullness of L-cancel to render aerials as a dominant approach? Pressuring with technical play isn’t a stupid or mindless play style at all it’s actually very common and works well. In melee it’s smart to play technical and fast and l-cancel everything because it minimizes how much you get punished.
Sure, just saying that any trash talk on the basis of that result is premature. Winning matters, almost winning but having much less experience doesn’t.
I think some people could make up for playing smart by learning the technical aspects of melee.
like say I could predict what a falco was going to approach me with every single time. but, despite this predictability, most people who dont know how to l cancel or do any other advanced techs stand no chance and it turns them off from playing because they feel players can make up for predictability by doing safe stuff all of the time.
so I dont think l cancels make a player stupid. I’m saying it makes up for not having any mixups at lower levels of play, turning off some people to playing melee at a higher level. I know this is a lot of the reason people are turned off by a lot of SNK games, its because they think they are just outright broken and have crazy technical/safe stuff that can make up for not having any mixups. (and for a lot of games from snk its true…)
I personally think Brawl will be deeper than melee mainly for the fact that it?s harder to combo in brawl than in melee. There is quicker recovery from being attacked, which adds a completely new level of play to the game. I don?t have much evidence for this but I think the good players will be separated even more from the scrubs than in melee. This game will have 3-4 times the competitive players then melee had mainly because the Wii is 3-4 times more popular than the GameCube ever was. This will push brawl to higher levels of skill faster. Brawl will be far more competitive than melee ever was.
I was a fox player in melee so you can guess I was pretty disappointed they took out L-cancel, wavedash, slowed the game down, ect, but I don?t think brawl will be any less deep mainly because a game isn?t deep because of the ATs; it?s deep because a competitive community makes it deep. Any game can be turned into something incredibly deep if it has got enough people playing it.
I think the real fear people have about brawl is there will be a plateau for the skill level in this game because of the lack of ATs, but personally I find that really silly. Just think about it. How the hell are people going to stop getting better in a game like this. It has got way too many options.
Justin Wong is just naturally good at games. A lot of the pros are like that. Ken just walked on the smash scene and placed first in the first tournament he went to (I think). Maybe this doesn?t happen with other fighting games? If you pulled the best people from other fighting games, or pretty much any game, I bet 50% of them would dominate rather quickly.
By the way, this thread is like the prime example of elitism going both ways. I really hope this SRK vs SWF thing doesn?t last?
Dumbasses like you who think that you’re some kind of SWF champion of reason, coming in here and just fouling up this forum with your high-and-mighty name-dropping bullshit post there. There are people that do have good points and can engage in reasonable discussion there too, but people like you are the reason why SWF kids are seen as immature retards. None of us ever claimed to be the shit at this game, and never have, but once we say that we actually want to learn and compete in the series you SWF people hold so dear, people like you come over here saying that we can’t ever compete because we have no experience? Get that bullshit out of here.
So you say Brawl is a shallow experience and that we should play Melee instead. Guess what: nobody gives a fuck about what you say.
YOU will see with your own eyes how the tourney scene develops too. Until then, just shut the fuck up and wavedash your ass back to Smashboards.
I think the real fear people have is that they won’t do as well in the new scene as they did in the old. That’s why there’s so much elitism and people clamoring for various rules without wanting to test things out.
It will most likely settle down as time rolls by, though.
So far Brawl has reminded me of early CvS2. The quickest and most rewarding style to learn early on in the lifetime of most games is the defensive style. I remember people used to bitch about Sagat and Blanka turtling, how good c.fierce was, and saying the game was nothing but a turtlefest. Obviously turtling is still a strong playstyle in the game, but the rushdown in CvS2 has taken over the top spot in high level play.
So give it time. Let the game evolve. Discounting it this early in it’s lifetime would be a shame. Eventually silly broken stuff will be found to satisfy those melee players who try to name “Advanced Techniques” after themselves, and the spacing/zoning game will satisfy those of us who play SF.
My main gripe, though, is how they disabled all items. I mean sure, Stars are a bit OP, but at the very least lets leave in Smash Balls on very low. People are like “OH GOD IMPOSSIBLE TO AVOID FREE KO FOR THE PERSON WHO GETS IT” but from the few matches I’ve seen so far people have been able to avoid a few of the final smashes (grabbing a ledge to avoid Peach’s, etc). I think the smash community so far is too quick to judge because it doesn’t play exactly like Melee, and they’re comfortable with abusing glitches to make up for their lack of actual ability to play. Calling items “random” is pretty bad too, ST’s randomness severly outweighs anything smashballs or items bring to Brawl, and that game has been played since the early 90’s.
