Even a Honda with Super doesn’t scare Ken. If Honda walks forward, what’s to stop Ken from jumping on him? Or if Honda doesn’t walk forward, but jumps forward instead, what do you think Ken will do? Not very hard to guess. And even if Honda releases the Super for block damage, it’s easily reversal attacked on either the 1st hit from distance or the 2nd hit after blocking. It’s pretty useless vs just about anybody, which is why I think his stored Super should have been left in and given invincibility for the 1st hitting frame to better escape meaty fireballs.
To be honest, Thelo uses his Super very well vs Hadokens, and is at a very high level with Honda, and no Ken player at his skill level would be stupid enough to do a Hadoken at the wrong time vs him, and Damdai is one of the best Ken players in the world. I really can’t think of anything that could help. Ryu and Ken just happen to have a million answers to any of Honda’s attempts at getting close. And even when Ken is backed up into the corner, there are a lot of options to getting out of the corner that Honda cannot beat. And Damdai is proficient at all of them: jb Roundhouse, psychic Shoryukens, Air Tatsus and more. Once Honda gets close enough or gets a knockdown, yes it’s dangerous, but no good Ryu or Ken will ever let that happen IMO. Sorry Thelo, not trying to get you down, just being honest.
From reading… wouldn’t stored super have been a better move to have than stored Ochio, for the match-ups and in all ‘fairness’? Very unlikely to be implemented, but how would a neutral jump FP akin to Balrog help him while advancing? Would the medium torpedo going through FB’s, instead of jab, been a “viable” idea instead?? What is the best thing for Honda to do IF he is moving forward and Ken decideds to jump in on him? A jump-back FP/RH?
Yes, you will know what’s coming, but stored Super will force Ken to stay on the ground. If Honda walks forward and Ken jumps on him, the stored Super can be used as an anti air. And from mid range, the Super’s 1st hit is hard to hit on reaction. Definitely better than Honda trying to beat Ken air to air with jump attacks. Air Tatsu can be hard to beat air to air for anybody. Not to mention fireballers will be forced to clam up. Not exactly a useless situation for Honda.
I watched a few and I have nothing really to suggest. Maybe some hesitating? I noticed Damdai usually SRK’s after the first hit of a jump-in, for example, so you might want to jump in, do nothing, and then punish his SRK.
The tier list is reflected in elite play and a player like damdai knows that match in-and-out. Take my Cammy, for example. I’ve beaten TO13GO13 and some other amazing Guiles who probably are unfamiliar with Cammy. Pit me against Mars and I haven’t even beaten him one round yet! Congrats for the wins you did get, well earned.
Thelo, you play that match pretty well. The cold, hard truth is that Honda just sucks vs high level shotos. The only advice I can give ya is to learn that cr.LK xx HHS stuff that Megaman does. Not necessarily for the combos, but when you get in footsie range, its a safer, faster way to apply pressure than some of your other options.
…I did notice that Thelo whiffed his punishment attack after some of Damdai’s :hp: Shoryukens. But, seriously, the only way you could take more advantage of Damdai’s missed DPs is play offline and be sure that you could Ochio Throw him upon landing.
Then again…I am a Ken main, so did you really expect me to give out advice on how to beat him? Just kidding…but yeah…that’s all I got.
It looks very similar to my experience with boxer in that you are basically fighting for that ideal spot just within sweep (or in your case, HHS) range. Definitely capitalize on the chip/pressure of fierce hands, and not random jab headbutts. The chance of beating a fireball is not worth the risk when you could just trade with the fireball using hands.
He’s getting alot of ill-begotten damage from punishing jab headbutts and buttslams when I’m sure floaty fierce would have safely inched you forward. (And yeah it is better than boxers, it just looks weird cause hondas actually moving his hand, boxer just sticks his arm out and levitates forward.)
I honestly think you’re doing things absolutely right, it’s just that you consistently make more tiny mistakes (getting greedy with a jump-in, for example, or doing the aforementioned anti-fireball tools at the wrong distance) that end up costing entire rounds at your/damdai’s level
You took the words out of My mouth(and no Im not kissing your azz).The one thing that got me back into tolerating kens shenanigans against honda was finding it doable to ochio a whiffed or blocked shouryu.That and improving my pacing.Dont underestimate mind games,even the best players can get mixed up with some unexpected stuff(fake fireball showed this lmao!).
Well I suppose its similar damage,but as I was saying pacing tends to sway the balance more than damage so I prefer to mix it up if I can.The less You anticipate,the more i can punish ha!I always see a hug coming after I whiff a DP,thats why it surprised me it was so accessible to ochio instead when in that situation,as I hadn’t really tried that hard to pull it off before.
I agree with this. Good Honda players can sometimes give shoto players a run for their money but a high level Ken/Ryu player just isn’t going to be beat by a Honda player on a regular basis.
Although I don’t think this is the proper solution (I think stored super is lame), it would definitely help him much more than stored Oicho. Stored super helped him so much in ST, even though his super was garbage because all the hits rarely connected. And stored Oicho is so overrated IMO. It’s not that difficult to reverse a tick attempt with Oicho (with no storage), just like you’re doing a reverse SPD with Zangief/Hawk.
If Honda had the range of the standing fierce chop like he did in SSF2, that would give him a great air defense against a shoto. It’s still possible to use this as an air defense (I’ve seen Shogatsu use it very well in HDR) but your opponent has to be on top of you and the timing isn’t easy. I find it too risky to attempt in most cases because if you mess it up, you’re eating a huge combo.
Giving Honda his SSF2 fierce chop and his SSF2 standing short and forward kicks would help him against fireball characters. Those moves were great to poke with since they knocked down like the RH version but without the huge startup and recovery times.
The set-ups after bear-hug aren’t as good against Ken because nothing you do will be safe thanks to fierce Dragon. Against Ken I usually just Ochio, bear-hug is more usefull against Guile, DeeJay, etc., characters you can safe-jump against.
I mainly just bulldogg Ken since he can dragon punch everything. It’s basically just bulldogging and gaining ground very slowly until get into max poking range and then looking for oportunities. SweetJV is right, I’ve found that cr.short->HHS does help to put pressure on Ken, it’s very hard for him to react to. Damdai is just a step above almost every other Ken.
To address your specific question earlier, as I said to JohnnyV above, a high level Ken is going to beat a high level Honda and that’s just kind of how it is.
Damdai’s Ken is awesome and maybe I’m off here but my observation is that his strength is not exactly in zoning and turtling (he let you in on a lot of openings that shouldn’t have happened) but IMO his Ken should still beat Honda because of the mismatch.
JohnnyV’s suggestion about learning the Megaman style of HHS combos is a great one and it may help you pull out those rounds and games that you barely lose. It’s something I want to add to my game as well (I just haven’t dedicated time to practice it yet) and I actually think our playstyles are similar in some ways compared to Megaman for example.
I might also add mixing HK in some of Your mid-range jump-ins could probably help,especially if Your aggressive about it,as it has a little better range than HP,although they are obviously different-HP is farther range earlier in the jump arc than HK where its best near the end,which is why its better sometimes for mid-range-.
@ Thelo: I was going to post exactly this, ken can’t be safe jumped as you most likely know, because of that damn first hitting frame on the fierce DP, so a huge amount of your mixup options are gone after a bearhug. The walk under crossup is your only real option AFAIK, and once your opponent looks for it it’s not tough to spot. I would have to agree with a lot of the other posts so far, megaman’s xxHHS/ochio combo setups work really well for my honda against shotos (not that i’m top level w/honda by any means). They allow you to turn a small opening into a hi pressure mixup, and will score you decent chip damage at the least, and give you an opening for an ochio depending on how sharp the ken is.
Look at using crLK xx MP HHS cancelled into negative edge MP stored ochio (to keep you safe from the next reversal dragon punch if he hits it). Practice the timing for the setup, it’s not that difficult, and then once you get into range for a cr.LP or are punishing a whiffed dragon punch use it every time. The MP HHS advances you closer, if you keep up the hands you get chip damage, if you stop them (holding the button IN) & go for the stored ochio (releasing it) it’s safe if you miss or he reversal DP’s, you’ll just block & do nothing, and get him on the way down instead.
Also, from looking at the vids, damdai’s ken is very reversal jab DP happy.I hate that, especially online. Baiting & punishing a little more could work for you?
You & him are a pretty good example of a hi level standard honda vs. shoto match. At that level of play it’s always going to be a bloodbath for honda over a decent number of rounds, no matter what. Like i posted a while back, honda just doesn’t have the toolset to effectively deal more damage versus hi level shotos in this game, so don’t sweat it, you play it better than most. Every character’s got their bad matchups, your main just happens to have one of the worst.
Just kidding…but yeah…that’s all I got.