Ok…
Kick Lariat <1 [COLOR=Red]6 [/COLOR] 5 5 5*5 5 5 6> = 43 *Low invincibility ends
Is that right?
Yep.
Edit: BTW Bison was recently added to the hitbox page as well.
Ah ok, thanks. Added him to the community thread.
Projectile recovery in ST doesn’t depend on the button you threw the projectile with, but on the button of the last normal attack you performed (either complete or canceled) before throwing the projectile. The DC version, which HDR is based on, fixed this bug for Akuma’s red fireball specifically, but left it in for other projectiles.
There’s a widespread misconception that normals only affect projectile recovery if you kara-cancel the normal into the projectile, but this is incorrect.
Can’t they have the AE bug that makes the low ones have the recovery depending on the previous high tiger shots? The original ST version has them with the same behavior of Ryu’s hadouken: it depends on the normal used before it. Just wondering. I know it takes a lot of time to test such things.
Great find, A+ Rufus… Goes to show, how wrong one’s (inc. my own) feelings about a move set can be. Its nice to have definitiive information.
-fatboy :china:
Well, I got 11 41 last time around. The 1 frame difference is a bit disconcerting for me, I’ll test the ‘previous attack’ hypothesis,
This version is, ostensibly, based on a dreamcast version, so it’s unlikely that AE-specific bugs are going to show up. Especially considering the high tiger shots all have the same timing, it seems unlikely, but I can check.
That means that doing the Tiger Shots back to back will negate any last normal cancel properties, right? eg Jab Tiger followed by Jab Tiger. The 2nd Jab Tiger should have the correct recovery then, if I understand correctly.
If not, then another way to capture the correct recovery for each Tiger Shot would be to do the the corresponding normal attack before doing the Shot. eg Jab punch followed by Jab Tiger Shot to get the light normal recovery, or Roundhouse kick followed by Roudhouse Tiger Shot to get the hard normal recovery. Right?
Rufus, if you’re going to capture Cammy’s Thrust Kicks again, I suggest capturing them on block or hit. When they whiff, they’re probably the same as the Classic versions, but the difference in Remix only shows up when they’re blocked or on hit IMO.
Edit: I know you mentioned hitstop messing up the frame counts before, I’ll just label them whiffed I guess.
No. A Jab Tiger isn’t a normal. The second Tiger will still have the recovery of whatever the last normal was you threw before you did the first Tiger.
I think the projectile-recovery-depends-on-last-normal bug may have been fixed in AE (albeit replaced by the low-Tiger-depends-on-last-high-Tiger bug for Sagat) but HDR isn’t based on AE in any way; it’s based on the Dreamcast version of ST, which is older than AE by a few years.
The recovery bug doesn’t exist in HSF/AE for default (Super X) if you select SUPERX mode while holding start you’ll get the original ST versions, the question now is which ST version is YBH based on.
N.Sagat’s tiger shots recovery is worst in AE than Vanilla ST(DC/Arcade) This video proves it !
[media=youtube]Pa1SCPXPUbE[/media]
Look at the 2 N.Sagat’s, I guess we can’t be 100% sure that ST versions detailed in YBH are the O.ST or AE.ST .
This might explain why T.Akiba has different frame data on N.Sagat than YBH !
It doesn’t matter which version of ST that HDR is based on, because we’re simply trying to confirm whether all Sagat’s Shots have the same recovery or not. If Rufus can capture different recoveries (or not), then we can talk about whether HDR is DC/Arcade/AE etc.
I think the best way to capture Sagat’s Tiger Shots is to do the the corresponding normal attack before doing the Shot. eg Jab punch followed by Jab Tiger Shot to get the light normal recovery, Strong punch followed by Strong Tiger Shot to get the medium normal recovery or Fierce punch followed by Fierce Tiger Shot to get the hard normal recovery, etc.
For the low Shots, I think you would have to do Short kick, Jab Tiger, Short Tiger. Or Forward kick, Strong Tiger, Forward Tiger. Or Roundhouse kick, Fierce Tiger, Roundhouse Tiger.
That way, it will negate the last normal cancel property and the last Tiger recovery property and the last high Tiger recovery property.
Looks like tiger shot recovery is indeed based on prior normal attack. 40/41/42 for increasing strength of prior normal.
I’ve already done them multiple times, and I don’t really know how to account for hit/block freeze. (I’ll probably be doing them at least one more time because I threw away the old video, but…)
Awesome, thanks. :lovin: I think for the Classic data we should use YBH data for N.Sagat. Just to keep it consistent with the rest of the Classic data more than anything else. I updated the 1st post.
Is the startup of the Kick Shots still 11 frames?
Nah, don’t worry about it. I’ll just label them whiffed. Thanks bud.
According to T.Akiba’s site, in AE:
-Most projectiles that have variable recovery per button depend on the projectile itself
-Ryu’s red fireball depends on the button of the last blue fireball he threw
-ST (New) Sagat’s low tiger depends on the button of the last high tiger he threw
-Akuma’s red fireball depends on the button of the last blue fireball or air fireball he threw
The last proves that AE is not directly based on the DC version of ST.
Also, in AE, the Super, ST, and ST Old versions of Sagat all have a whopping 8 frames added to their low tiger recovery, compared to actual Super and ST. As far as I know Sagat is the only character in AE with this kind of significant change to his abilities and with no way to play as the “real” version of him (ST Honda/Chun/Claw’s “storable” moves are removed by default in AE, but you can get them back by entering a code when you select them). Shows just how scared the Japanese are of Old Sagat…
Note that none of this has any bearing on HDR whatsoever. It’s just helpful when researching to be aware of the exact differences between ST and AE.
References (in Japanese):
http://games.t-akiba.net/sf2/flame.html (Frame data for all SF2 versions up to ST, including AE)
http://games.t-akiba.net/sf2/hyper.html (General information about AE)
Thanks AWJ. I know that HDR is not based on AE, so when capturing Akuma’s Flame Hadokens, it has nothing to do with his last Hadoken, and is only based on his last normal, right? I think you would have to do Jab punch, Jab Flame Hadoken, etc and same thing for his Hadokens, to capture the proper recovery. Tho it’s not a bad idea to be cautious and do Jab punch, Jab Hadoken, Jab Flame Hadoken, just in case IMO.
No, Akuma’s red fireball, uniquely out of all projectiles, does actually depend on the button you throw the fireball with. Like I said in a previous post, Capcom specifically fixed that move in the Dreamcast ST port, which is what HDR is based on.
Why did they fix Akuma’s red fireball in Dreamcast ST but not any other projectile (especially when Akuma isn’t even a tournament-legal character in ST)? Most likely, they didn’t know at the time that other projectiles were affected by the bug. For classic Akuma (no idea about HDR Akuma) the difference between a jab and strong red fireball is 8 frames and the difference between strong and fierce is a further 10 frames. A jab red fireball has 41 recovery frames and a fierce red fireball has 59 recovery frames–in relative terms that’s almost a 50% difference, and in absolute terms even after considering turbo frameskipping it’s about a quarter of a second, which is obvious to the naked eye.
For other projectiles, the difference is only 1 or 2 frames per button strength, which is extremely hard to discern without using a video capture device. The only website I know of with correct information on projectile recovery is T.Akiba’s, and he apparently captured the frames of every move in every version of SF2 himself. I don’t know when or exactly how he did it, but it was most likely after the release of the Dreamcast version, which was way back in 2000.
You also have to keep in mind that big game companies like Capcom aren’t monolithic entities. AE, an arcade release on the original CPS2 hardware, was most likely developed by a completely different team than Dreamcast ST, a console port. The Dreamcast devs dealt with the projectile bug in one way that specifically fixed Akuma’s red fireball. The AE devs fixed (or tried to fix) the bug in a different way that fixed most projectiles, but introduced a new bug for characters with more than one projectile move (Ryu, Sagat and Akuma)
So, I did some testing, the set-up doesn’t seem to be dropping frames. Rather, timing is subtle in wierd ways.
Regarding projectiles:
Ryu’s projectiles, both red and blue have recovery times of 40/41/42 based on prior attack.
Ken’s are 39/40/41 based on the strength of the projectile.
Dhalsim’s fireball recovery is 39 across the board.
Akuma’s recoveries are unaffected by prior attacks for both red and blue projectiles.
Sagat is affected by prior move strength 40/41/42.
Also, if anyone cares:
Turbo 0: Skips no frame ~60 fps.
Turbo 1: Skips frames 1, 7 and 13 out of 19. ~71 fps
Turbo 2: Skips frames 1, 7, 13, 18, 24, 29 and 35 out of 39. ~ 73 fps. - this is probaby
Turbo 3: Skips every 5th frame. ~75 fps
Turbo 4: Skips frames 1,6,11,15,20,24,29,33, and 38 of every 41 frames. ~77 fps.
So there’s a big jump to Turbo 1…
This seems to be based additional frames per 32 displayed with an additional 6,7,8, or 9 skipped depending on turbo speed.
Good to know, Rufus, thanks for the tests. Regarding Akuma’s Flame Hadokens, did you test the last normal recovery bug as well? Also did you capture new numbers for both types of Hadokens, or are they still the same? The Strong Hadoken total count is unusually high, and all the Flame Hadokens having the same recovery is not what it seems like in practice IMO:
^Jab Hadoken <4 10 39> = 53
(11?40) = 51
^Strong Hadoken <8 20 42> = 70
(11?41) = 52
^Fierce Hadoken <4 10 39> = 53
(11?42) = 53
^Jab Flame Hadoken <4 16 41> = 61
(16?41) = 57
^Strong Flame Hadoken <4 16 41> = 61
(16?49) = 65
^Fierce Flame Hadoken <4 16 41> = 61
(16?59) = 75
Sweet, thank you. There was some discussion going on about what kind of frame skipping algorithms the game uses, but I think your info will greatly help out those people interested in this. :tup:
Also, player feedback on all the frame data is not only welcome, it’s essential. I understand there are lots of players who don’t understand frame data, and I’m not a frame data expert either, but I know there are also lots of players that understand frame data.:china: