Ok cool, thanks again. For Blanka’s Super, it doesn’t matter whether it hits or whiffs. Either one is fine, as long as we have the recovery frames as well. You could also set the training dummy to jump and time the Super to go under.
What about Dictator’s Devil’s Reverse recovery?
Edit: As per Sirlin’s balance article on Dhalsim, the Super has additional vulnerability on his head that it didn’t have in Classic, so the high invincibility that you captured doesn’t make sense. Unless you meant either “high vulnerability” or “low invincibility”. Maybe it’s the 45 that has high vulnerability?
Edit2: I updated the 1st post. The only frame data missing are Dictator’s Devil’s Reverse and Blanka’s Super.
If you’re looking for a comprehensive list of changes, YBH/T Akiba has different values for some stuff than what I get with my process for classic mode - for example, it came up with 'gief’s crouching fierce. That means if to make a comprehensive change list, I’d have to test all of the classic moves as well as the new ones, and there’s no way for me to distinguish between Xbox360 and other versions.
If by “errors” you mean the Classic data, then Rufus is right in that YBH and Akiba have conflicting info for some attacks. As I mentioned in the first couple of paragraphs, in cases of conflicting info, I’ve used YBH’s data.
If you’re talking about errors in the Remix data, I think the majority of what Rufus has captured is accurate. The ones that I believe may not be accurate, I’ve marked with a ^ symbol, such as Sagat’s Tiger Shots and Cammy’s Thrust Kick. Other than that though, I think all the data is very accurate, and I think Rufus has done some excellent work.
As for completing the rest of the frame data, the only attacks missing are Dictator’s Devil’s Reverse, Blanka’s Super and the throw ranges and damage for Ken, Dhalsim and Boxer.
If by “complete” you mean whether I have the full list of changes in HDR, then yes, it’s complete. I’ve even added attacks that had hitbox changes but not exactly frame changes, just to be sure (eg Dictator’s Devil’s Reverse, Cammy’s j Strong, etc).
Edit: TBH I should remove those attacks that only had hitbox changes, and not frame data changes.
I very aware of what was been changed between to two versions. :clown:
I am talking about “Orange” frames in the data. Depending how you are define them, your data is not correct. The choice to define the orange frame data as simply being “hitting frames that are invincible” is very ambiguous not descriptive to the various states of invincibility/ vulnerability a move can have.
Are the Orange frames only defining invincibility as total invincibility? Because there are many moves with partial invincibility during their active hitting frames (i.e. low, mid, high, or any combination there of). Which buy definition would still fit the orange frame criteria, they have hitting frames that are invincible. The chart is lacking the representation the partial invincibility property almost completely.
Moves that have hitting frames while being are invincible low, mid, high, or any combination there of are Zangief’s KKK Lariat, all of Cammy’s Spinning Knuckles, Fei’s short chicken wing, Chun’s SBK, and Hawk’s DP. Each has partial invincibility changes that are different than the N. Version ST counter part. That is a huge property that should (if you choose to spend the time to do it) be accounted for in you data.
The chart does note the partial invincibility differences with DJ’s kicks. So it seems at one point it was accounted for and therefor was measured in the data. But I don’t see it reflected in any other move sets…
Since, I saw the partial invincibility expressed the DJ frame data, I assumed partial invincibility as already been accounted for, and when I did not see reflected in the other move sets, I assumed either:
The data was missed and not accounted for, making the data set incorrect and therefore incomplete.
or
The data set is simply not completed yet, and the adjustments will be made at another time.
I’m the one that chose to express the data this way, so I think I should answer your questions fatboy.
The orange frame data indicates hitting frames that are completely invincible, and not partial invincibility such as Dread Kicks having low invincibility. Blue frames also have complete invincibility, but differ from orange frames in that they’re not hitting frames.
As for not indicating other attacks that had partial invincibility added for Remix (eg KKK Lariat, Devil’s Reverse), that data is not complete yet.
Even though KKK Lariat had low invincibility added for Remix, the frame counts are not different from the Classic version. It is the total frame counts that I primarily wanted to capture, in order to compare the difference with its Classic version. I also wanted to illustrate attacks that have been given complete invincibility where before they were vulnerable (eg Ken’s Strong Shoryuken), and I also wanted to compare attacks that had lesser frames of complete invincibility than before (eg Chun Li’s SBK startup).
TBH, hitbox changes such as increasing or decreasing the size of vulnerable hitboxes or offensive hitboxes, is not really the data I wanted to illustrate in this post. I primarily wanted to compare the differences in frame counts between attacks that had been sped up or slowed down (eg Thrust Kicks, Short Flame Kick, etc). If that data happened to be captured, such as Guile’s Overhead’s low invincibility, then I added it to the post. But I think those kind of hitbox changes are best illustrated in a hitbox video or with hitbox pics, such as the ones Rufus is making.
When I mark stuff as invulnerable (i.e. blue or orange) that means no hittable areas. Stuff with tiny or weird hitboxes (there’s a bunch of those) gets marked as hittable.
So, for with the chicken wing, for example, the start-up is invulnerable:
(this is noted as a ‘blue’ frame)
And then has ‘partial invulnerability’:
(this is noted as a normal frame)
Then goes to hitting frames:
(this is a red frame)
I’m not sure there’s a good way to describe the ‘limited invulnerability’ stuff. Consider, for example, Dictator’s scissor kicks:
In that frame, M Bison is grounded (i.e. throwable) , but has ‘sweep invulnerability’ and unexpected vulnerability to low attacks. If I read that description without the image, I’d just say ,“WTF does that mean?”
I’d look at how YBH does it. They do it for every move, and it looks fine. It’s probably more work than its worth for you guys. But, it is there, and perfectly communicable.
It would be just as easy as everything you guys have done. Just use parts of your format in combination with the YBH lay out. You’ll need to rethink your legend and lexicon, but it totally doable, and very easy.
Example:
Text = non-hitting frames that are vulnerable
Blue = non-hitting frames that are completely invincible*
Red = hitting frames that are vulnerable high.
Dark Red = hitting frame that are vulnerable mid and high.
Orange = hitting frames that are completely invincible*
|X| = Landing frames.
[X] = Hitting frames.
Such as Ryu’s DPs:
**
Jab:** 4 [4 10] 21|5| / Airborne Frames: 10-36
Strong: 4 [4 14] 28|5| / Airborne Frames: 10-50
Feirce: 4 [4 18] 35|5| / Airborne Frames: 10-61
Oh, and am 99% sure Scissor kick, is consideed to have no invulnerability. So, it is not a good example. Though he can’t be swept, the every aspect [three hit boxes] of hit horizontal animation can be damaged. I’ll check YBH tonight.
{2} Just becuase, one may wonder “WTF does that mean?” Doesn’t mean others who are more experienced at reading frame data think that same thing. As of now, I have read the frame data books on all the follwing 2D games, many many times. Many of them I still own. (sadly)
Vampire Hunter
Vampire Savor
Alpha 2
Aplha 2 Gold
Alpha 3
Warzord
Cvs 1
CVS PRO
CVS2
Street Fighter 3
3rd Strike
CFJ
SF4
SFEX+A
Super Turbo
Now, if I see fame data with a description of partial hi/mid/low invulerabilty without a direct coresponding image, I still know exactly what it means as long as I have the frame data behind it. When I do not see any discription of the sort pertaining the partial invulerabilty in the frame data set (and I konw for a fact that it exists in the game), I see that data set as inferior and incomplete to that of a data set that can provide it.
I was hoping to do something like this eventually:
LINKS NO LONGER VALID info at: http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
The stuff I’ve posted here so far is specifically in response to Blitzfu’s questions
Fatboy, what is the point of expressing hitbox info with frame numbers? While you’re right that YBH does show hitbox pics, they also don’t show every frame of animation in an attack. It would be nice if they did, and I wish they did, but they don’t. And I think that data such as “vulnerable mid” or “low invincibility” can only be illustrated by pics or videos. What would be even better, is if someone created a video or pics that allowed you to progress through an attack frame by frame, not just animation by animation. If somebody did that, I’d be ecstatic. But as it is, we are limited by the scope of our resources.
While I don’t mind putting as much data as possible into one format, and considering I’m not the one that is capturing the data, this is more Rufus’ decision than mine, I just don’t think that we have the right equipment and resources to properly capture every single piece of data, while still keeping it simple and understandable.
Your right YBH doesn’t show every frame of the attack. I am NOT looking to express ‘box info’ with the data. I think it would be more worthwhile to show the changing states of vulnerability a move goes through in the frame data. YBH shows changing states of vulnerability IN THE FRAME DATA. Open it up and look, its right there.
Other than separating out the landing frames, what I posted for Ryu’s DP frame data is NO different than the yoga book hyper info. Its exactly the same. I did it to show that changing state of vulnerability could be expressed very easily in the data.
You don’t need to express changing states of vulnerability of a move if you only looking for frames, but that is limited view of the move set. Understanding the changing states of vulnerability of a move is huge in game play. Its the difference between understanding why Ryu’s Jab Dragon Punch can go through a fireball and why the other versions can’t.
[Edit] I feel that If you do not inclue changing states in the data, you are limiting the utility of the data you are collecting. I think what you are doing very cool, but adding it would make it even cooler.
Some suggestions:
-most important thing is accuracy and quality (like I said before I would capture attacks multiple times and average out the results, to iron out any discrepancies or a method similar)
-total frame counts (at the beginning or the end)
-airborne states (some attacks like Devil’s Reverse are off the ground on startup, but are still considered grounded, I don’t know if you have a method to figure out whether a frame is truly airborne or not, but this info is helpful for grapplers and people looking to escape throws)
-pics need to be bigger (you’ve got about 5 per page without scrolling right, maybe up that to 4 or 3 per page without having to scroll right)
Can’t think of anything else at the moment. You’ve got it setup wonderfully. :tup:
Ok cool. Thanks for all your hard work Rufus. I’ll remove the ^ symbol from those attacks.
Also, what about Devil’s Reverse recovery? And Blanka’s Super recovery? And if you have the time, can you please find out which frames Zangief has low invincibility on the Kick Lariat? Thanks. :china:
If anybody is following this thread, all thoughts and concerns about the frame data are more than welcome.
I totally agree with everything you’ve said. I’m using NKI’s site as a model for how to display the frame data. The red and yellow frame colors are from that site, but I decided to add blue and orange frames, as well as airborne frames using YBH data. TBH, if I can illustrate the frame data half as well as NKI’s site does, I’ll be more than happy. And considering I decided to add even more data, I think that’s good enough for me. But you’re right, it would be nice to add even more data. I think that what Rufus is planning is ultimately the best way to illustrate frame and hitbox data IMO.
