but coth baby, you said you loved me 
and ego: http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/zangief/crroundhouse.html
I find it interesting that Iām pretty much the only one who has even acknowledged this idea of yours.
Even as a Honda player, Iām very intrigued with this idea.
I guess if you think about it, the concept of the headbutt beating a fireball seems bizarre (especially just one version of it) but itās already been established in this game and weāve grown used to it by now.
Itās effective as long as itās used sparingly. Rely on it too much and youāll just get yourself killed though.
And I think it would complement the HF-style butt slam very well.
This was never made clear but the trajectory of the butt slam would have to be altered to how it was in Hyper Fighting. Otherwise I think it would be a useless change.
If you can remember way back from HF, Hondaās butt slam was an incredible move for hitting characters when they threw fireballs. However it was also a horrible move because your opponent would be able to retaliate afterwards.
The more I think about it, the more I love the idea. If he had a version of the HF butt-slam that knocked down, that would probably be the best change you could give to him that would help him against projectile characters.
Nice Kuroppi! Even that might be too good of a rebalance for Honda. I can see a lot of good Honda players wrecking havoc with that short buttslam. Itāll become the most hated move next to stored oichio.
When I first saw blitzfuās post on this thread, way back on post #1, I didnāt know where to begin because it seemed like a fun idea but can easily become the topic of debate. And now, all this focus on re-remixing Honda, as if Honda is the stem of the balancing issue of this game. I think someone mentioned this already, but perhaps beefing up the tools for the character that have the toughest time would help their match up āvs. Hondaā. But if you do, how much more effective will that buff(s) make them for their non-Honda matches (like the matches they are dominate in)?
If I had to choose (outside of leaving it alone) what to do with Honda in terms of nerfing/buffing than I would feel most comfortable with the ideas suggested by** jchesor** and Kuroppi. (Was I bias there?) However, as soon as a good Honda player(s) master the new changes, Honda would probably slide up a tad in the tier chart and there would still be some heartaches to the amount of damage he can do with his new buffs or how well he has it for his former tough match ups despite the new nerfs. I want to see other non-Honda players whose all in favor of toning down Honda talk about how much ātweaking Honda or untweakingā would improve their game with respect to all other character match up. Put in in a format similar to what** blitzfu** has done on his 1st post. By altering an idea with one character youāve already manipulated the tier chart in theory and some characters will still wind up on the short end of the proverbial stick.
Because if Honda goes through with these transformations than what sacrifices or buffs will the other characters going to make? Letās not forget that making the control motion easier for some characters is a buff too. Overall, thereās always going to be characters that are going to rank lower than others, no matter how many ideas we can suggest.
Iām sure Sirlin thought prior to coming up with the idea of changing the properties of this game that this wonāt be such a daunting task, but as he got into itā¦it became very tedious because every tweak has an adverse affect on other match ups. Some tweaks were great for certain match ups and others it made lop-sided. What we wound up with is a modified version of ST with some of the match up dynamic being drastically changed. A lot of ideas thatās been previously posted seem to suggest bringing back the original ST/SF2 move elements with some added twists. Personally, I would have settled for a direct port of ST (not re-balanced) with the added online game play.
In closing, for me, Honda is just a fun character and I probably wonāt change anything about him despite the projectile match-ups (since Iāve grown accustom to his good and bad match ups). Like with all characters in this game, thereās matches you have that are favorable and ones that you have to work damn hard to win at. But thatās been the common denominator of SF2 since the beginning. I appreciate the changes in HDR despite it not being perfect but then again āperfection of balanceā is really an unobtainable goal in the SF world.
-Ego
Thatās how the game continues to grow after itās released, because players put time and effort into wondering āhow can i ABUSE the hell out of this in a way that no-one will be expecting?ā. I love that.
Me too 
That move is way better than it gets credit for, most bison players just use it as an afterthough, but it can add so much more to his game. I whore it as a dash, and itās actually better than that, because itās as fast but itās not a unique animation, its startup looks identical to the slide, so your opponent has to guess on whether to block it or not. Itās also fantastic for positioning, throwing off close crossup attempts, and is great for closing distance and going into a 2x.StLK, Cr.MK xx FP crusher combo to punish a whiffed dragon punch or the likes. Fake slide into headstomp is a great low to high mixup from a distance too, especially if youāve gotten away with tripping them a couple of times walking backwards, and their instinct is to low block your next slide.
Fake slide into throw is still the funnest thing in the world if you get away with it though
This would be awesome in the battle against shotos but would be scary against the non fireballers, especially sim and bison with no decent reversals. He would pwn them for free. He could use its invincibility to counter any poke or footsie, knock down, AND get in close and start his ochio ass rape all in one go from half a screen away.
It would have to be seriously unsafe on block if it was going to be buffed like that. It would need a big recovery time to add a big risk element to it or it would just be too spammable. Like āblock it, dust yourself off, scratch your nuts, fix your hair, calmly stroll up and throw his assā seems about fair.
Honda seems to be one of the few characters in HDR that is as close to complete as can be without being broken. He really dosnt need any more buffs, he dominates non fireballers and has an easier time dealing with fireballer, he has various options for getting through fireballs.
Exactly. Honda being super dominant in some matches and free in others is a problem only revolving around him. Giving Cammy a dive, or whatever, isnāt going to make Honda an even more fight for everyone. Itās going to help her in that fight while completely disrupting the balance in others.
Not really. Heās whatever the opposite of broken would be called. Heās a MONSTER in some matches and he loses for free in others. On paper that migh look even. But in tournament play, itās retarded.
Iāll try to respond to the other arguments against my proposals tomorrowā¦
Some HF players (old schooler like Tomo as well as some from the HF XBL scene) were not down that HDR/ST replaced HF.
And SF4 pulls players away from both HDR and ST.
Let people play the version they prefer.
Itās not like most HDR players at the better skill level donāt know what ST is.
Many of them moonlighted on GGPO at one time or another.
And itās not like GGPO ST players have moved over to populate and empower the ST side of Remix.
No, they stayed with GGPO.
If the TOP players played ST on XBL Remix, many of the top HDR players would start playing ST just to get a crack at the best talent.
Yuh Vega DJ is on HDR now, if players of his level were on the ST side of Remix, I would be there too just to get better.
Some real killers are the artificial, corporate division$ that needlessly chop up player populations within a game:
360 vs. PS3 vs. GGPO/PC? spreading your playerbase for the same game over 3 proprietary systems is ass.
Same thing goes for tournament organizers who cut a game for the sake of fashion style points.
Games that (if they were offered) WOULD draw a healthy number of players to sign up in them.
I went to EVO last year, I played in the EVO HDR event, the ST side event, and a 2nd HDR side event.
HDR had the 2nd biggest sign-up at EVO, and a lot of players would have entered a ST tourney if one were offered. (heck, most of them were anxious to enter additional HDR tourneys if they could: people want to PLAY! at these events)
Or is it that EVO makes the most money by signing up players who play only 1 game? (that way they get the sign-up fee, and the much smaller 1 game fee)
(I have no idea on EVO mindset there, just postulating)
How can you think this? I think heās one of the most unbalanced characters in the game, his bad matches are ridiculous (ryu v honda is just stupid) and his good matches are equally ridiculous (gief v honda is just stupid in the other direction). Heās not broken, I would call akuma broken, but his matches are all lopsided in one direction or another, definitely not balanced or complete.
He doesnāt really, unless the fireballs are hugely telegraphed. Maybe a little more against a charger like guile or deejay, but pick him against a ryu or ken player that plays zoning the way itās meant to be played, who doesnāt just spam endless, predictable chained fireballs all day, but uses clever baiting, doesnāt fall for shenanigans, and uses well timed counters and footsie cancels to play a pushback/keepaway game, and then see if you think heās got options.
Ok, I can see how only the RH version being steerable would prevent any abusable shenanigans. But that still wouldnāt help much vs fireball characters. I think the Short Splash and Strong Torpedo getting fireball evasion properties would be a much better buff. Dee Jayās MGU has fireball killing properties but itās not invincible. The same thing should be applied to Hondaās Short Splash and Strong Torpedo startup.
It can be fun if the Oichioās range is nerfed. And Iām not talking slightly nerfed, but a lot:
The built-in DP technique may help out Hawk and Cammy vs a wakeup Torpedo, but Zangief is shit outta luck. How does nerfing the Torpedo startup or buffing the Splash startup help Zangief? He already has enough problems vs the Splash, esp in the corner, and a steerable Splash will only compound this matchupās difficulty. And simply nerfing the Oichioās range is not enough as SPD already outranges Oichio. The solution lies in nerfing the airborne Torpedoās hitbox and/or its blocked recovery in exchange for improving the Jab and Strong Torpedo vs fireballs and/or making all Torpedos have the same speed as the Fierce IMO.
Also, if anybodyās wondering why everybodyās focusing on Honda, itās cuz if you were to make a list of the top 20 most difficult matches in the game, aside from Akuma, Honda would be the one who owns or gets owned in the majority of those matches. Balancing Honda goes a long way towards balancing the whole game IMO.
Looking at it from a Gief perspective, the move that gives me the most trouble is the hundred hand slap. He can sit there chip damaging you and itās hard to jump over or even hit clean. I imagine this is the move that makes the other non projectile characters have a hard time. I would first make it more vulnerable. Give it a larger hitbox so jump ins donāt lose so often (headbutt is the anti air anyway), reduce the damage and also make it harder to execute. Slightly reduce the damage of the ochio throw. In return for these nerfs, allow his fierce punch to be steered even further, and maybe change the invincible headbutt from jab to strong. If thatās not enough maybe increase his walk speed or give him a fake headbutt (this is of course a joke).
Iām sure many will disagree and that Iām probably wrong, but that said Iām probably the worst Honda player ever. Iām just trying to nerf his up close ability but make it easier to get in vs projectiles. I believe this would help the balance, but at the same time Honda would lose some of his character.
I have a rather different idea for how to make him more balanced.
#1 Make HHS have to be done by holding forward while mashing so he canāt do both HHS and have Headbutt stored.
#2 Give either Strong or Fierce headbutt projectile destruction properties. But if so reduce their priority so most characters can hit him out of it easily after it starts to travel. It still has the same invincibility and priority on startup.
I would also actually want to reduce the distance buttslam travels since atleast in my experience it makes it hard to apply good pressure to him by crossing him up since he can just buttslam away from danger.
Unsure about Ochio i am sure the single character with the most defensive tools in the game needs an option select command throw ā¦
So what everyone here is saying is Honda is so fundamentally flawed that he needs to change the basics of how he plays? Steerable downward roundhouse buttslam is an interesting idea, but the idea of being able to jump in on Honda without worrying about the headbuttā¦just doesnāt feel like Honda anymore. There is also a distinct possibility with a change of this scale (a steerable move that travels so far) really would do worse things for opponents he already beats, even if you have to lose the charge to adjust his positioning. Losing his headbutt invincibility really isnāt the answer, though (and I play mostly T.Hawk).
Yeah, HHS really is what gives so many of the nonfireballers fits, especially for Gief and Cammy. Pulling back the blue hitboxes ever so slightly on Giefās standing punches (all strengths) could give him a great tool set against some jump-ins and HHS, possibly beating Dhalsimās limbs as well once in awhile. Nothing drastic; just a few pixels shaved off would open up his game very well here. Honda could still trade with it often, but heād have to think a little more, plus heād still have the potential for chip damage on knockdown like before.
Gief also has some flexibility in how to handle tweaking his strong and fierce GH, as Rashid mentioned; some good mixes of faster startup for slower recovery, or increasing damage on stronger versions, for starters. His running grabs could also be buffed in a similar fashion; keep the short version the same, but buff forward one more point of damage, and roundhouse two points. If you can telegraph that move and still get in with it, you deserve to do damage more in line with at least a standard throw. The idea of allowing st.hp to knock down on hit was tossed around, but this would take away some of the distinctiveness that the lariats possess; it could be very powerful (especially near a corner) with very little commitment.
Youāre saying this as if no other characters have obvious gaps in their play styles that could be addressed without making them totally immune to these weaknesses. I know I mentioned it somewhere on here before, but thereās a great answer in Cammyās case regarding a close variation to her dive. She should be able to cancel out of her hooligan roll into what is the frame/animation equivalent to her O.Cammy version jumping air strong (same as neutral j.mp for both ST versions), except that it can do chip damage. The angle should be fixed at all versions somewhere between 30-45 degrees off normal, just like dive kicks from her and other characters with them in other games. This would allow her a way to get into Hondaās HHS that wouldnāt be guaranteed, but still much better than just neutral jumping. It also opens her up to being able to change her trajectory in the air, which makes the jab and strong rolls more viable as tools to evade fireballs and sweeps (though not fast enough to take advantage of really solid traps). Since itās a punch move as well, it wouldnāt hit most of the sweeps in the game either besides slides (and Dhalsim could still poke this from a mile away before she ever got to that point). For beating sweeps, she still has cr.mk, and if she got the buff to her slides I mentioned a bit ago that would help her immensely. Making the ādive punchā part of her hooligan move increases its startup time, and makes it a tad more predictable (though much more slippery than she is now, which suits her style), which balances it out nicely over being able to just throw it out anytime (ala CvS2).
Donāt get me wrong; Iām definitely not for just adding major changes to help with one or two matchups that could, in turn, make that character a monster against the rest of the cast. The way Sirlin handled Bisonās Devil Reverse is an excellent example of buffing a move to shore up shortcomings without making it abusive. Characters like Zangief, Cammy, and T.Hawk are potent, and do have a lot of potential, but just fall completely flat on their faces in many matchups. The important thing is that balancing them, fairly, is possible.
Hondas most favorable matchups (6.5 or better) are against T. Hawk, Cammy, Fei, and Gief. This is only four characters, not half the cast. Coincidentally, those four are also considered the worst characters in the game. (Looking at Theloās matchup chart updated 2/5/10).
If I were rebalancing HDR, I would look to buff those four first, then play test. If Honda still beats them, then I would look to nerf Honda.
Uh thatās cause for some reason I thought you were a girl. :wgrin:
I donāt remember using the word love, I do remember you using the term ābromanceā though. :lol:
Uh huh, sure you did. :wonder:
I just hate dive kicks. Anything with a dive kick makes me cringe, and Cammy already has move that deals with low and mid attacks when applying pressure, which is her hooligan throw. The point is it does not work on Honda because both pokes and the throw get beat by hands at startup or torpedo at the active and recovery part, and both do a lot of damage. And walk up throw is risky due to oicho and Hondaās superior normal throw range.
Iād go with subtle changes, along the lines of what James has suggested.
The reason he beats them so easily, is they donāt have really good answers/shenanigans to counter his tools. Not having a fireball means they have to get close, where he has a good and safe torpedo, good buttslam, HHS, huge throw range(lol at feiās throw range), and heās also got throw loops. How does someone with inferior close up options fight against that?
Exactly this. What the lower tiers need are better options in general, not just Honda-specific ones. We just have to make sure they wouldnāt also rape the rest of the low tier, or even middle.
And James, I have a lot of respect for your intuitive, well-explained ideas and rationale. To respond to oldschool, though, the Honda changes you suggest are anything but subtle; they completely change him. It all seems a bit extreme to change so much of the way he works now, but I definitely agreeā¦something has to change with him.
Donāt mind Honda having the throw damage and range his Ochio does now if it couldnāt be stored. To commit, youād still have to give up your charge for a split second, which in a crunch is a big deal for the fat man. Not having it be totally automatic is all it needs; Fei should ALWAYS feel a bit scared of attempting to walk in and throw him (which would be the same, even without Ochio due to his amazing normal throws and holds).
How about making the Hawk Dive delayable, like Blankaās super. As long as you hold one of the two buttons, Hawk lingers in the air, flying towards them on release. Of course, there would be a time limit, like 2 seconds for how long you can hold it before he just drops so it doesnāt just look ridiculous. Perhaps pressing down would make him cancel earlier, as well.
Another version (mp+mk instead of lp+lk), could have a slow, invincible startup, not be safe on block, and would reset his air-attack state (like Chun Liās head stomp). So, when he jumps at someone, he could counter their anti-air if timed properly. If they block, though, they can punish him before he recovers. If they get hit while still standing, then he can try to counter any retaliation or just drop. This would help him in all the matches where he loses now, but wouldnāt help that much against Chun Li and Dhalsim because they donāt have good anti-airs anyway.
Fei has to be hestitant walking up and throwing anyone, since his heās only even in throw range with himself. 