The reason for that is cuz Fei’s footspeed is third only to Claw and Chun Li’s footspeed. I’ve been wrecked by good Fei players that can use his fast walking speed to make his tick throws very deadly.
You have a good point, Honda does need a few tweaks here and there. I just don’t think he needs anything drastic, because as I mentioned, according to Thelo’s matchup chart (granted it’s a work in progress) Honda only dominates 4 matchups. With the move-set he has now he is no better than 6-4 in 10 matchups and loses badly in 2 (Ken and Ryu). If he is nerfed to fix his 4 overpowered matchups, it will hurt him in the other 12.
Dee Jay also has 4 matchups where he’s 6.5 or better and I don’t think anyone suggested nerfing him.
Special Opinion about Throws in General:
I feel that ALL characters should have the SAME throw range. This idea that someone could have an unblockable move with zero startup that can be abused vs characters with smaller throw ranges is a fundamental flaw in the Street Fighter series. Also if two people throw at the same time it shouldn’t be random who gets the throw. The characters should bounce away from each other kind of the way they do when you trade hits in the air. Any thoughts?
I don’t think so considering reversal moves get you out of tick throw setups. This was discussed a page or two back I think, and I agree that hugely different throw ranges adds depth to the game (much like kara throwing).
Nah. One of ST’s strengths is that the characters are unique and there are less universal options than other games, and yet the game is still balanced. This just makes the characters more like each other.
6.5 match-ups aren’t the problem. According to the “Consensus match-up chart”, there are four 7.5-2.5 match-ups in the game. Honda is involved in all of them (2.5 to Ryu and Ken, 7.5 to Gief and Hawk).
The 7 to Cammy and 6.5 to Fei along with the 3.5 to Dee Jay just make the trend clear.
This is a very good point and is one thing I’ve always tried to stress.
Just for the sake of discussion, even if you went as far as to take Honda out of the game, the worst characters in the game are still going to be the worst characters in the game.
But I do enjoy the brainstorming about rebalancing Honda. Lots of good ideas here.
Definitely. The whole change to the butt slam originated with JChensor’s idea and I ran with it. And he stressed that it would be punishable if blocked.
Yeah, truth be told, I think oldschool_BR is on crack if he thinks my changes are subtle. 
(Totally joking, oldschool. Just giving you a hard time. ^_^)
Yeah, without a doubt. Which is why I was always saddened by the way they were altered in HDR. It just didn’t feel like it was good enough. Rather than giving the characters new TOOLS, they were all given changes that felt more like gimmicks. Faster Running Bear Grab, better hopping Towards Fierce, safer Drill, safe Dive, invincible Short Chicken Wings, etc. I felt like they needed something more substantially grounded. For example:
My original idea for tweaking the Hawk Dive was the opposite: to make it come out REALLY fast like Blanka’s Blanka Ball. Basically, when you hit three punches, he was already diving at you. This Dive method was even tried and tested (see Sirlin’s logs). It helped a TON against Guile and Honda. Basically, you could walk up and Dive someone without them being able to react to it 100% of the time, forcing them to take chip damage. You could even Dive over Guile’s Low Forward if you predicted it and hit Guile before he recovered. The reason it wasn’t abusable was because it still had the original bounce back, so Hawk’s reward was Chip Damage, but he’d have to get in again. But at least, when he got close, he had a way of scaring you enough to land a walk-up SPD.
And if you did it against Honda so that you hit him as far front as possible, Honda actually couldn’t punish it with a Headbutt. You would land and recover and Uppercut him before the Headbutt reached you. It required careful distancing, but that makes it good.
However, it produced some weird situations that were causes for concern: 1) Will it kill poor people like Sim and Bison, who have no decent uppercuts? Answer: Actually, no. Those two just happen to be able to counter it. 2) Will Ryu and Ken’s Fireballs become useless against Hawk? Answer: Maaaaaaybe, but Ryu got a Fake Fireball explicitly to deal with Sim Drills, so I can’t imagine it couldn’t be useful for T.Hawk. Ken’s Strong DP became completely invincible again, so it was easy to punish Hawk for even trying. The thing is, Hawk still has to commit to Jumping, so faking him puts him in a very precarious position.
In the end, Sirlin thought it too dangerous to leave in. He’s probably right, in the end, as once people got good at using it, I can imagine it would counter tons of things and just be pretty broken. But the point I’m trying to illustrate is that a faster Dive was an actual TOOL that affected Hawk’s game dramatically. The core of Hawk’s problem was never getting it. His walking speed was too fast for that to be his real problem. The problem with Hawk was that he wasn’t a threat, and he needed a new Tool to be a bigger threat… give enemies a reason to NOT stick out a limb and keep him out for free. Not only would that have helped against Honda, but Cammy as well, one of his other worst matches. Cammy keeps him out with Low Forwards for free, and so that kind of Tool would help Hawk all around. So I liked the “fast dive” more than the “safe dive” because the safe dive didn’t improve Hawk’s threat level. The safe dive was as slow and easily to react to as before, so it didn’t help against characters like Guile and Honda. The safe dive didn’t fix a hole in Hawk’s game.
So for Zangief, he mostly got shenanigans: better hop, faster running grab, slightly safer Green Hand. But really, none of those things covered any holes in Gief’s game. The biggest problem with Gief is that his offensive options are severely limited, especially because his Jump was useless against so many things like Sim Standing Jab and Blanka Standing Strong as anti-air. I think to improve Gief, he needed to get a few things, but mostly one improved Jumping Attack that could beat out other moves… a better priority Jump Attack. That would have been a real TOOL to cover a hole in his game. SFIV did this with Gief’s Jumping Forward. It’s a perfect tool because it hits low, quick, and has good priority, but causes less Block Stun than Roundhouse so it didn’t give him free SPD games afterwards. I would have liked to have given Gief a Jumping Strong that had his hand, when at its lowest point, have a huge red hit box and no blue boxes so it would straight up stuff other Normals. But to prevent that from being TOO powerful (and allowing him to Jump in on hella people when they were getting up), make sure that that particular “frame” lasted maybe for only 3 frames total, which is shorter than the invincibility frames on almost every DP in the game. So if you wanted to beat Sim’s Standing Jab or Blanka’s Standing Strong, you’d really have to time it perfectly, which leaves you open to Low Strongs from Sim or Low Strongs from Blanka, or quick Jump attacks. That way, Gief has to play a guessing game, but at least he has a tool to defeat certain things. It might end up being too good against Blanka on Blanka’s wake up, but frankly, Gief needs help in that fight anyhow.
For Cammy, I never liked the Drill improvement, because the Drill was an ineffective Tool from the get go. Everyone could Low Jab it, so making it better did nothing. In fact, on top of that, the Drill’s Priority (Short Version) was actually made WORSE. Cammy’s problem was one of approach and, once in, actually being effective up close. Which pretty much means Cammy sucked at everything. Hahaha. I would have improved her Normals. Low Forward would be faster, thus proving to be a better poke. Chun can Combo two Low Forwards, which means it recovers so fast, that as a poke, it’s powerful. Whiffing it doesn’t hurt you. Cammy, on the other hand, when she whiffs Low Forward, it’s really easy to take advantage of her delay. I wouldn’t let her Combo two of them like Chun, but at least make it recover faster so that, as a whiffing poke, it’s more effective and she doesn’t lose so many frames on recovery. And she has no good Normal Move long range poke, like Chun’s low Roundhouse for Stand Strong. So make her Stand Roundhouse more CvS2-like. Have it reach farther so it could be an effective poke, but would still be slow so it wouldn’t be gdlk. Right now, it’s useless. I never, ever, ever use it.
Obvious things like making the Spin Knuckle better would be good, but I would have made it hit the FIRST frame when it lands, so people have to hit it out of the air. Also, as I’ve always said, I would make the Fierce version travel a distance in between Fierce and Strong does now, make the Strong one travel as far as Jab does now and make the Jab version not move forward at all. All three versions would hit only once for immediate knock down. The ab version would have NO invincibility and its damage lowered. She would spin in place, but slow enough so that it ONLY comboed after Close Stand Fierce (Far Stand Fierce would push her too far away and Strongs and Forwards wouldn’t make the enemy reel long enough). That way, she’d finally have a safe Combo for chip damage, but she’s have to be kissing you to be able to land it, so it wouldn’t be broken. Also, she’d finally be able to charge her meter for free at the other side of the screen like EVERY CHARACTER in the game can, outside of Gief and Hawk (and even Hawk gained one in HDR). Cammy is the only character with no way to charge her meter safely. I hate free charging, actually, but it’s easier to give the one character who doesn’t have it one than to remove it from everyone else. But these changes would be real Tools that would aid her overall quality, not giving her a safer Drill that is perceived as so good that you nerf her uppercut and her Short Drill and her Jump Strong because you’re worried she’ll kill Dhalsim too easily now.
For Fei Long, his main problem was that his Jump was holding him back: it goes too far and floats too long. As a result, he really needs some new means of MOBILITY. That was the kind of Tool he needed. And actually, I think he got it: the Short Chicken Wing, actually, is a great move. I just think the only mistake was keeping the Roundhouse and Forward Chicken Wings nerfed even after they lost their invincibility frames and making the Short Flame Kick recovery worse. I think if the ONLY changes Fei got was the new Short Chicken Wing, better motions, and the farther range on the Rekkas, Fei Long would be pretty good right now.
- James
No way did Zangief get useless buffs. Zangief is easily one of the most improved characters, along with Hawk, Ken and Dictator.
No comment on anything else, but I firmly disagree with this.
The New Dive, on block or hit, puts Guile at a pretty bad spot. Its a mind-game that’s completely in Hawks favor. Diving and immediately sticking out Cr.Forward upon landing stuffs Guile’s Cr.Forward. It sets Hawk up at the perfect range and situation to buffer his Super to walk-up with it(and I do this CONSTANTLY, offline and online). Its easily a 6-4 fight in Guiles favor because of the New Dive. I’ll go ahead and say DeeJay gives Hawk a harder time than Guile.
With Honda, knocking him down sort of made a difference, but normally the recoil on the Old Dive put Hawk to far back to start a strong mind game with Honda, and Honda could also normally hit Hawk during his recovery on the Dive. I think the New Dive helps Hawk ever so slightly.
No, my comment was more in line with the fact that it’s too easy to counter the Hawk Dive with your own move on reaction. If you’re blocking the Hawk Dive with Guile or Honda, you’ve already made a grave mistake. But a very defensive and turtling Guile and Honda can BOTH react instantly to Hawk Dives with their anti-air options and beat it out (or trade) every time because Charge Moves take the least amount of reaction time to execute. It’s very rare that you can actually get these characters to block the dive at all.
- James
As far as Honda goes, I completely agree that its very rare for him to block the Dive instead of countering it. That’s why I said it only helped slightly.
Guile is a different story. You’re stupid if you Dive at him while he’s sitting there. That’s where you walk-up and try and predict an SB and either jump over it, or Dive over it. Guile will either get hit or he won’t have enough time to react to it. Bam, good position on either scenario.
Some great ideas poured out over the last page, yes!
So James (and everyone)…regarding Hawk, I definitely agree that the delay option for a dive move is a great way for him to bait reversals.
Just give him a second dive with KKK (or corresponding HDR shortcuts) that comes out 3-4 frames later, and remove the small hitbox over his head that appears on his landing/sliding frames, for sure. Man it would be great to hover over Honda or Ryu and bait a reversal, only to hang in the air for just long enough to avoid their invincibility frames.
Ideally the original safe(ish) dive could get a very small increase in speed (1-2 frames, no more) for all of the reasons mentioned previously regarding chip damage and such. The KKK dive should be totally unsafe, but allow Hawk to be completely safe and pretty much in on contact.
Why, you ask?
It would give so much more incentive as a mind game to simply block the move and punish it, since nearly every trade would be in Hawk’s favor (but every block would be in his opponent’s). You could then play off of this with the faster new dive and proceed to chip successfully more often. And if you were to bait a move with the riskier dive, or really get a great read on sloppy play, you could really dish it out. Both dives should have a fiveish frame startup difference for maximum utility, and possibly a different grunt similar to how Gief’s lariats work now.
The beauty of the new dive is that with its much easier to predict nature and severe punishment factor, directly abusing it is out of the question.
And, regarding Cammy…definitely agree 100% with making her punch come online quicker with SBF.
Remove several of the actual animation frames from her spin once she lands before she punches to subtly speed up the move, and to allow a much better chance to trade with opponents trying to sweep her out of it instead of flatly losing the exchange. She’s already been totally exposed at her head for awhile at that point anyway; her risk/reward stinks with this move.
It’s a similar notion to why I recommended her hooligan punch “dive” and less vulnerable slide; they address specific weaknesses a fleet character shouldn’t have, and help her matches with fireball traps and Honda without being overpowering against the remainder of the cast (though still superior to her current options).
One more thing…nerfing, in general, should only be done in the face of a glaringly obvious problem. Nerfing characters in general is what really pisses people off in revisions of games, not the buffs. Just look at how Chun Li turned out; she’s a shadow of her former self, and a lot of her fans were justifiably upset. (I’d happily take Akuma nerfs, however, hehe.)
Even characters like Honda should only have the fewest things done to them to actually reduce their effectiveness in landslide mismatches. The characters he really beats on, as mentioned all over this board, have many more weaknesses that just the fat man anyway; they need help against him, not for him to be handicapped for them.
Just my thought: a fighting game that is truly balanced should have no matchups greater than 6-4.
So have there ever been any fighting games that are truly balanced?
It depends on your definition of balance. Is balance achieved by having 5-5s across the board, or is balance achieved by having a counter character or two for every character.
I don’t know about the former, ST/HDR is mostly the latter. Except, anyone the low tier can counter can be countered with a mid or high tier character which sort of makes the low tier more pathetic.
I was specifically asking about Noriega’s definition…
Soul Calibur 1
There are so many 4.5/5.5 and 5/5 matchups. Nothing greater than 6/4
Anyone could win.
I think one of the problems that non projectile characters have with Honda is his the combination of high defense and high offense. He takes ages to kill, but can kill them quickly. Just had a look in training mode, and most times the Ochio does more damage than an SPD (not to mention has half the motion and can be stored). Take away the projectiles from the projectile characters, and Honda would probably dominate them too. It’s balanced in some sense that he has some favourable matches and some unfavourable, but if the idea is that each character should have a roughly equal chance of beating him, then I think his damage needs to be addressed more than his moveset.
On the subject of damage, Honda and 'Rog’s grabs should have been reduced in damage too. Being able to KO someone with 3 throws is kind of silly.
In fact try it. Get a Honda playing friend and play 10 games with him and a shitty matchup. Then set the handicap to offset damage and see if that changes anything. It may not be drastic, but I’m sure it would help even it up (but obviously would need another method vs fireballs if this change got implemented).
Throw Damage Comparison (Non-Standing Recovery)
Well I think I have to disagree with the Oichio taking off more than SPD. Remember the throws for these grappler-type characters varies in damage depending on which button your are using: jab, strong or fierce, with the damage being more significant respectively. So a fierce SPD would do more than a jab or strong SPD. Comparing fierce oichio to a fierce SPD, last time I looked the fierce SPD seems to do slightly more in damage and has greater priority. And you don’t even want to talk about Hawk slams, those are ridiculously powerful if you get nailed by those. His jab Hawk Slam seems to compare to Gief’s fierce SPD in terms of damage.
As to the last few posts about overall game balance, none of the SF2 series were ever balanced. You have top-tier characters, mid-tiers and low-tiers. That’s the way it’s always been.