I was thinking the same thing. Why should pulling off one of your moves be an accomplishment.
Look at that, ryu pulled off a fireball at the start of two rounds in a row! lol
Don’t have time to post on everything until I get home.
Actually I believe the inital goal of HDR was to redraw ST and port it to PS3/Xbox, the balance concept came later on.
Whenever I try to beat HHS with sweeps it feels like a crapshoot. Maybe (probably lol) it’s just due to PSN but HHS seems too fast to react to if they aren’t more than half the screen away from me. It doesn’t help that Hondas seem to be the most likely to do teleport headbutts and have rollbacks due to pressing too many buttons for the connection to handle. I’ll have to try out the reaction sweeps to HHS in training mode to see if it works and can incorporate it into my game. HHS spam just seems to work too well on me so I definetely appreciate the advice. Thanks man.
It’s nice to see I’m not the only Gief who thinks a lariat that stuffs headbutts 100% of the time would be helpful in the MU.
A lot of good ideas for rebalancing Honda James, and also a couple that I’m not so sure about. Especially the steerable Sumo Splash. If it’s steerable enough to avoid sweeps, it’s steerable enough to start wall dive shenanigans IMO. I’m sure top Honda players will find a way to abuse it after a knockdown or after an Oichio. Even if they can’t immediately repeat it due to having lost d charge, it’s still too close to being a another wall dive IMO. I mean ST Chun Li’s df RH was not steerable, but it was abusable vs half the cast, just based on what range Chun Li decided to use it from. That’s what made it difficult to figure out which way to block, this will be the same. And if the Splash is only steerable a little bit, then it won’t be good enough vs fireball characters. They’ll still find a way to punish him, esp Ryu and Ken (Shoryuken). I mean if I can adjust my sweep spacing to consistently punish the new j Short tripguard, then the same thing will happen to the new Splash, I’m sure of it. I don’t mind the Short Splash getting more startup invincibility though.
Fast Torpedos: great idea. If all Torpedos were the same speed as the Fierce, I think that would have helped Honda greatly, esp from mid screen range. And I wouldn’t mind if Jab and/or Strong Torpedo got a bit more startup invincibility, but Strong Torpedo should not have any fireball killing properties once it’s airborne. Of course that will not help out non fireballers vs him, so I think slower recovery on a blocked Torpedo would also have been needed. Not slow enough to be punished by fireballers, but slow enough so that Fei, Dictator, Blanka and Boxer can punish with a reversal Hard special. Faster speed, slower recovery: sounds good to me.
The whole problem with fireball characters vs Honda is that all of Honda’s options for getting through fireballs are slow and easily punishable. Take Boxer for example, who has almost as tough a time getting around fireballs as Honda. The difference is that Boxer has a faster jump and walking speed, his ultra fast Rushes are able to stuff fireball startups and also being able to trade using his far st Fierce, but most importantly, he can punish fireballs when he’s in range with his Fierce Buffalo Headbutt.
Honda can sometimes do the same thing with a prediction Jab Torpedo or a Splash. But Boxer can always punish on reaction. If Honda tries to punish on reaction, both the Torpedo and Splash are slow enough that they can be countered by a jump back attack (assuming they clear the fireball in the first place, which is not always the case with Torpedo). And in the case of DP characters, they can punish with a Shoryuken or whatever. Honda’s options need to be faster. I like the idea of all Torpedos having the same speed.
Over the shoulder Oichio: I’m not sure. I don’t think Honda’s tick Oichio setups are a problem for anybody. The problem is not being able to tick throw Honda at all or pressure him with a grounded meaty after a knockdown. Example: if I was to pressure a knocked down Honda with a meaty Shoryuken, reversal NE Oichio is risk free. But Zangief or Hawk would get hit by the Shoryuken for attempting to wakeup with reversal SPD or Typhoon. But I don’t want Honda to lose the storeability either, as that’s part of what makes him fun, same as Chun’s stored Super. But something has to change from the way it is right now.
Honestly, I think the best thing would have been to just nerf the Oichio’s throw range. Maybe even less range than Fei’s throws or about the same as the average normal throw. Just so that it can only be performed at close to point blank range. I think that will diminish the number of accidental Oichios while at the same time making Honda players have to work for their reversal throws, and consequently giving more leeway to non fireball characters to attempt a tick throw. Honda’s Fierce throw is one of the largest in the game and is about the same as his current Oichio, so he wouldn’t have lost any throw range battles or lost the ability to tick throw IMO. It’ll just be harder to get risk-free reversal throws.
Buffed up Super is the way to go for Honda IMO. Make it storeable, more invincible on startup (I wouldn’t even mind if it was completely invincible for the first hit, and then vulnerability returning for the 2nd Torpedo). If that’s not buff enough, then making both Torpedos safe on block would have been good enough IMO. Obviously he should gain less meter in exchange for any buffs to the Super.
It’s funny how none of these suggestions really helps out the characters who need it the most: Zangief, Hawk and Cammy. LOL
HHS isn’t that vulnerable to sweeps - mid height high priority attacks are better.
The only move that Zangief has that will beat all version of HHS at the opening of a round is standing Fierce Punch (which only trades, but in 'giefs favor). You can also back away with lariat. If you are further apart, or have a head start on Honda, there are other options. Jab hands will hit Zangief if he crouches.
Ha ha. There’ a reason why I didn’t mention steerable butt slam until someone poked fun of my first suggestion.
A farther Sumo Splash is actually a good idea. It’s just not good enough IMO. Every fireball character (except for Chun Li and Dhalsim) can already beat it with something: Dee Jay’s j Jab, Guile’s j Fierce, Ryu and Ken’s Shoryuken, Sagat’s Uppercut. So having it go farther forward will only put him into more trouble IMO. But if it was faster, rising faster and dropping faster (but not too fast), then maybe fireball characters would be more careful with their fireballs.
Yeah I’ve looked at your pictures and studied the HHS pictures a bit before which is what led me to say it should be nerfed to make the hitboxes more vulnerable to sweeps and aerials (blue hurtbox streched a little up and down). I appreiciate what you’ve done but one thing that kind of throws me off is how there is a different aspect ratio for Zangief’s pics than some of the other character pics (it might just be something funky the Wii browser does to your pics). It’s not that big a deal but if you get around to it making them all the same would be helpful for comparisons (numbers for the duration of each pic would also be nice). I do the standing fierce opening every now and then if I see they stick to opening with jab HHS. If they go for the other ones I walk up and kick lariat for a very nice opening. I haven’t seen the composite one before though so thanks for linking me to it.
Nifty composite! I’ve always wondered what that would look like.
Very nice pics Rufus, thanks. The problem with Zangief’s st Fierce opening is that it’s susceptible to Sumo Splashes and Torpedos. At least the Kick Lariat and cr Jab opening don’t get owned by Torpedos and Splashes. But have you actually tested the st Fierce opening vs Honda’s Slaps? Or are you just going by hitbox data? Just curious, cuz I haven’t tested it.
I’ve done it several times with success vs. HHS openings (it trades in Gief’s favor). It is still a very risky opening though. If they don’t HHS asap you have a pretty good chance of getting hit by it and whiffing though. I’ve also been owned plenty of time by torpedoes and HHS openings starting with lariats. Cr. jab trades with opening jab HHS and does so little damage it isn’t worth attempting. I’d say the best opening is just walking back and reacting to any opening he does with the appropriate response. If he doesn’t move then your at least not in the terrible starting position and if he walks forward he has no charge, so all you have to worry about is HHS and that stupidly good sweep. If they get predictable with their openings there are lots of mindgames you can play but that goes for anyone.
Kick Lariat takes care of both those openings. It’s not vulnerable to low attacks during it’s first rotation, so you can use that to back up out of Jab Slaps range. If it’s Fierce Slaps, he’ll get hit. And he’s too slow to walk forward and sweep, Zangief will have recovered from the Kick Lariat by then. If it’s Torpedo or Sumo Splash, you have a decent chance of hitting both of them with the Kick Lariat, but most often, you can recover in time to block both of them.
I just meant worrying about HHS and sweep after he starts walking towards you for a bit. When I back up using kick lariats as an opening and they use a HHS that moves forward (not sure if both or only one version works) I usually get hit. If he starts with jab HHS he doesn’t hit you unless you crouch, jump, or attack so you don’t have to worry about it if you choose to walk backwards. I’ve just been hit so many times out of openings with backwards lariat that I try not to do them that often when I’m not feeling lucky.
I don’t think there is a “wrong” answer regarding skill requirements in the game.
It’s simply design variations, and how those variations appeal to different players/fans.
VirtuaFighterFour prefers higher reward for higher dexterity skill execution.
Mr x64 and RickClops prefer wider access to move arsenals to enable robust gameplay and higher focus on non-dexterity aspects of the game.
Where the conflict bewtween two different schools of design thought would normally come up is when only one way will be adopted. (and the other dropped)
Fortunately for everyone, we have ST for fans of the first school, and HDR for fans of the second school. 
I personally prefer wider access to move arsenals for myself AND my opponent. (as long as the frame/position/etc. execution requirements on those moves are not compromised)
Me too, i think it raises the game considerably for all but the highest level player, which is good for almost everyone. Obviously though, if you ARE that high level player and you’ve been pulling off amazingly dextrous stuff for years and all of a sudden everybody can do it, you’re going to be a bit annoyed…
I’ve always thought that remixing honda would be a unique problem though. As soon as i read that a remix of ST was on the cards i had a feeling he would be tough for them to get right. He really personifies the issue where a tiny buff you give him to help him in a bad matchup will boost him hugely in another matchup where he’s already too good. it’s because the spread across his matches is so wide. He gets completely dominated by loads of the cast, and totally rapes the rest of them. He has less “middle ground” than most.
It’s a shame, i don’t know if he could ever be truly balanced against the rest of ST/HDR cast, but i definitely think he could have been done better than his R.Honda iteration was.
I liked loads of your suggestions james, but i thought the same thing on the slam. A steerable, knockdown slam just seemed like it would be too abusable, and i instantly started thinking of what shenanigans i could do with it ( i guess that’s the kind of player i am). It strikes me as one of those things that would boost his getting in bag of tricks a little bit, but would also boost his “when he’s already in and is busy raping you” bag of tricks too, which he doesn’t need for the most part (except for against shotos).
He would dominate even more against the weaker non fireballers, and would cause untold trouble for a few more. I’m thinking of the close game he has on chargers like bison, deejay, boxer etc, and him being able to do stuff like buttslamming past you, crossing you up, stealing your charge, and steering back to the other side, or meaty 50/50 wakeup slams, where he can aim for the middle and just ambiguously steer to either side and cross you up or not like claw’s dive does.
As a bison player, honda being able to use guessing games like that would make him terifying at close range along with all the other shit that he’s got already.
See that right there is what’s wrong with the HDR haters. If I was that high level player who could pull off amazingly difficult executions for years, I wouldn’t be annoyed that everything is easier in a newer version of the game. I would just ask myself “Do the easier motions ruin the game for me?” If the answer is yes (which it isn’t), then I would simply stick to the older version of the game. It doesn’t make a bit of sense to hate on the newer game or the newer players. That’s just petty and childish. And I’m a very picky person when it comes to SF2. If HDR did not make the cut, I’d have no problems playing ST. Luckily, HDR is freaking great!
I definitely agree that the easier motions and inputs make the game better for me, and that it increases the overall level of competition for the players. If it wasn’t for HDR’s remixed changes, I wouldn’t be able to enjoy using characters like Zangief (no 360s on a pad) , Cammy (Hooligan and Knuckle whiffs ftl) and Ken (uncontrollable Crazy Kicks).
Also, if HDR had only come with Classic mode, I don’t think it would have been given a spot at EVO2009 and other major tourneys. The longer life that HDR gave my favorite fighting game, ST, is worth so much gold. I don’t see why the OG haters can’t see that and embrace HDR for that reason alone.
Oh I wasn’t poking fun at your idea at all, yours just happened to be the post after my joke one and I was still in a mood to make joke posts 
Hmm. there was an issue with mbison, ryu, and dhalsim’s scaling being off. The frame images should now all be showing at 540x360 on my site, and the main images have always been at 720x480.
If Honda’s butt slam was reversed so it went straight up then dived down like thawk it would be less punishable at the end by fireballers and would help against vega and blanka’s crossups.
I don’t think the ideas have to start getting crazy like steerable butt slams and changing it to something like Hawk’s dive. Might be a little overthinking going on.
James’ idea about ‘switching’ the headbutt and butt slam to help out non-fb characters is a very interesting idea to me. Just about everyone agrees that the storage on his Oicho should be removed. It would get rid of the accidental/lucky throws but the skilled players with command throws could still use it just as effectively.
I had forgotten how good his HF butt slam was on the way up. Changing it back that way but making it knockdown would be a HUGE improvement. Give him his O.Honda normals and with his jab headbutt and improved steerable jumping fierce, he now has a number of options to deal with fireball turtles.