glad someone else finally posted this
even though jab headbutt is still punishable by fireball users I like it and use it enough to want to keep it
its just nice that someone posted what its really like to use instead of people who don’t know better immediately saying its overpowered
fireball matches are still too hard, honda will never beat ryu/ken/dj at evo
out of only the things you mentioned, oicho whiff is good, stored super is good
invincible startup on jab headbutt and super would be good
only having super go through fireballs made me think his playstyle would change to chun li’s vs fireballers
wasting time until you have super and only using that, I’d rather have the option to at least attempt to get in before super
I would not like basing his entire game around his super. And this sounds like his super might be too powerful.
Basically this sounds like a watered down version of ST Honda to me but with a godly super.
I’m not sure if you could tweak him enough to deal with Shoto/Guile/DeeJay and not break him against other characters. And as long as Ryu has the fake hadouken, that match will remain impossible.
But I think there are ways to improve him (trying to focus his improvements against projectile characters and hopefully not helping him too much against the others) and here would be my wishlist:
Nerfs:
Remove his stored Oicho. (But do not give it a whiff animation)
Change the startup of his super back to his ST one. (I think the HDR version is a little too good with the hits and damage)
Buffs:
Give him his O.Honda standing short/forward and standing fierce chop (better anti-air when he’s not charged).
Make the short version of his butt slam capable of going through all projectiles.
With the jab headbutt, the better jumping fierce, the short butt slam being able to go through hadoukens and the long range short/forward pokes and fierce chop, it would allow you an option to play Honda with an O. Honda type of style mixed in with his HDR improvements.
Hahah, yeah me too, but we’d never settle the “honda’s overpowered” argument then. I would rather have both, but if i had to choose, i’d rather have a useful attacking super with an invincible startup. Besides, his ass flop is OK for getting around fireballs too sometimes, and you can still keep your back charge for a surprise headbutt after.
If i could only make one change to him though, it would definitely be to buff the super. The whole thing sucks, especially the startup being so weak. I would even trade some of his damage for it, but that’s just me.
Yeah, this is the big issue with him, any buff you could give him would make him even more powerful against non fireballers which also isn’t fair, as he doesn’t need it.
Definitely, that match is a lost cause. It was already one of the hardest matches in ST, the fake fireball in the right hands makes it ridiculous, despite honda’s buffs.
I was going to suggest his old chop, i loved the one from Hyper fighting, but i thought it might be a little to overpowered along with Jab headbutt. It would turn him into too much of a turtle, even more than he can be now.
With Honda’s stored Ochio it should stay charged but if they are more than half a screen away (this way you can still option select if they’re close) you can tap punch for a 1 frame wiff motion that charges 25% meter and Ochio stays stored so you can wiff again without having to do the motion again. Yup.
What about a farther reaching Butt Flop? Something that might not be able to punish a fireball directly, but put you within psychic jab headbutt distance.
What were they thinking giving honda the jab headbutt to help him vs fireballs then giving ryu fake fireball. I have to do random fierce headbutts to get in on the ryus that use a ton of fake fireballs. And that’s only a little less risky than trying to walk/jump up to him.
I wish hondas jumping short could hit sweeps better than it does currently.
Nerf his super? Why? It’s still hella easy to punish on block (:tdown:) and doesn’t do much damage at all if it hits for 2 instead of 3. If you get hit by all 3 hits of Honda’s super, you probably deserved to lose the round anyway. If anything his super should eat fireballs on startup and/or get his stored super back. One of those could help immensely against fireball characters.
I completely agree on the O.Honda normals. Cancelable jab is another O.Honda perk that many forget about. Having a Chop that you could throw out at will without worry of another normal coming out would be a great asset that I miss a LOT from HF. I would also like the HK Sumo Smash to hit on the way up like it does in Hyper Fighting. That would help immensely against neutral jump terrors like Chun and Blanka.
I’m glad someone wrote this, because it’s how I’ve felt all along. I AM a proponent of keeping personalities for characters, so I don’t wanna change Honda too much. One of Sirlin’s goals was to continue to keep him as a super, defensive tank. I think the goal is correct, but I don’t think Honda can ever be made properly if that holds true. Of all the characters in ST that needed an overhaul, it was Honda. Because, frankly, Honda isn’t fun. There’s nothing fun about him. Your opponents are ALWAYS miserable fighting him, whether they die to him OR kill him, and users of Honda are miserable using him against Fireball characters. He just sucks the fun out of the game, and Honda needs to be made more fun.
I came up with how I’d tweak him, but I’m just not sure if such a drastic change to Honda would be well received. I’m curious how Honda players would feel about these kinds of changes:
If I ever tweaked Honda, most of my areas of change would come from the Butt Slam Move. I would basically turn it into his main “wake-up” move. On all three versions, I would give lots of early invincibility (so yes, the Short one could make it through Fireballs), and make it hit much sooner, to make it more of an effective wake-up move. They would be his DP, essentially, and thus, his wake-up would be punishable if you guessed correctly and Blocked it.
It would also become his main Anti-air. One of the bad things about Honda right now is that, because the Jab Headbutt is his main anti-air, he ends up so far from his opponent that he really loses momentum, so he’s sorta “forced” to go right back into Turtle mode. If the Butt Slam was his DP move, he could stay on the opponent and try to continue to apply pressure.
The Roundhouse version would obviously still not hit on its way up, but (borrowing an idea I came up with for improving Honda in SSFIV), I would add a new feature to the Roundhouse Butt Slam: let it be “guideable” on the way down. Not a lot, mind you, but if you hold left or right, Honda would drift subtlely left or right just like striaght up Jumping Fierce. The key to this is to make it less braindead to punish. If you try to chase Honda to Sweep him if he drifts backwards, he could drift forward instead and surprise you and land on you. If you expect the drift forward, he could drift backwards and be safe. That way he can try to go through Fireballs with it and have at least a guessing game to be safe. The TRICK to this would be to make it so you can only drift with FORWARD or BACK, but not Down/Forward and Down/Back. That means, you must sacrifice charging up a new Butt Slam to drift. If you charge the Butt Slam during a Butt Slam, you still can, you just can’t glide anywhere. Also, by drifting forward, which will be really good against non Fireball characters, you lose charge for EVERY move, even the Headbutt. So it’s a sacrifice you have to make to close distances.
Obviously, Headbutts would most of their invincibility. Like, for sure, they would be sweepable 100% of the time. They would be his ATTACK, and not his DEFENSE. I would make the Strong Headbutt travel as fast the the Fierce one, but travel only a full screen distance (so if someone jumped backwards, it would stop short). I would make the Jab one travel half a screen’s distance, but be just as fast as the Fierce one. It would be similar to Blanka’s Jab Ball, but doesn’t recover instantly upon landing on whiff. This would let him control distances a bit better, having moves that can be used for travel and such.
I would give him most of his O.Honda normals back. I would allow Low Jab to be Bufferable (so he could, from farther, get a Low Jab into Headbutt attack), but give Low Jab slightly less priority (to prevent Low Jab option selects all day).
Oicho Throw would gain a whiff, because getting in is a bit easier. The reason a lack of whiff was justified was because, once he got in close, it was like “Hallelujah!” against Fireball characters, so a whiff is completely unjustified. But with the whiff, it becomes much more fair if, after Anti-airs and such, he’s still on top of you. And instead of making Oicho bounce back, I would make Oicho just throw people over his head. Same animation as before, but he “turns around” essentially. So if he is IN the corner, he could loop it twice (first throw opponent into corner, second throws them back out), but if he Oichos someone in the corner, he would just Throw them out.
Of course it would lose the store. When I use Honda, I abuse the crap out of the stored Ochio. I think it’s way more gdlk than Painter gives it. Hahaha. When I use Stored Ochio, I beat pretty much every tick attempt that comes my way. My chances increase GREATLY of winning those grab wars. Maybe it’s 'cause I piano it, giving me 6 inputs in short period of time without ever leaving D/B. You don’t need reaction timing to do the motion. shrug
The Super would still be storable, and the only thing that erases Fireballs. It would Juggle like it does now, but like MackDaddi said, it would be DP’able in between the hits on Block to prevent it from being too good. Now you can do things like Jab Headbutt, store the Super, and if Ryus react to the whiffed Jab Headbutt (that he thought was a Fierce or Strong one) by throwing a Fireball after you stop, you could Super afterward and go through it (store it like how Chun does Fireball into Stored Super).
Hands would be exactly like before. I would make it so the timing is more lenient like HDR, but not 4 button presses. 4 would be better.
Jumping Fierce would be more guidable, yes. And he would still get swept after Jumps just as easily as before. With all the new tools, I think he’d be okay with that.
I think this makes him much easier to fight for non-Fireball characters (he no longer has a flawless defense) and he can attack better and has more ways to get around Fireballs. And once he gets in, he doesn’t become an all or nothing character (like if you predict a poke and manage to Butt Slam it once close, you STAY close).
So there you have it. Feel free to pokes hella holes in this idea.
That’s why ST is a better game for O.Characters alone when it comes to variety and character personality. Sure in ST, N.Honda could be played overly defensively, sitting still in crouch, storing his charge moves and command throw simultaneously. But if you didn’t want to play a turtle style Honda, you could play O.Honda instead, the more aggressive version. O.Honda doesn’t have a stored command throw, his HHS moves don’t move him forward while preserving charge, his HHS have deceptive recovery and can be used much differently than N.Honda’s, and many of his normals knock opponents down. Just watch Shogatsu and see how surgically precise his tick throws and mix ups are.
And I fail to see how any character in ST ‘needed’ an overhaul. The game is close to two decades old and people seem fine with playing Honda, and everyone else, as they are. ST didn’t need any changes, it’s one of the greatest FGs period, easily standing the test of time. Nothing ‘needed’ changing at all. Even the glitches, like stored moves, Supers not being able to be reversals, the randomness, gave it a unique flavor that most other games just don’t come close to having.
Saying Honda isn’t fun is ridiculous. He’s perfect for ST because he’s so all or nothing. He dominates many non-fireball characters and gets stomped by most fireball characters. Dictator is all or nothing because he has the best offense and the worst defense. T.Hawk is all or nothing because you either get in and perform the safe jump command throw loop or you lose. Throw loops, touch of death, gigantic character mismatches, this is what makes ST standout from the rest of the pack.
I completely disagree. Stuff like his throw loop is what made ST so exciting. That at any moment if you got cornered you might be eating a continuous loops of command throws with no escape. It always keeps you on your toes and makes spectating the game a blast. R.Honda lacks that personality, the command throw loop in the corner is gone, and the game suffers because of it in my opinion. I find R.Honda far more boring than N.Honda or O.Honda.
What is the rush to dumb the inputs of ST down? ST’s input have clearly stood the test of time. They didn’t need changing. People have been playing ST Honda for years using 5 required inputs for HHS without complaining. This is another reason that I find R.Honda boring and scrubby even. When I see an N.Honda or O.Honda player use HHS in a match, I know how difficult it is, I respect that the person is clearly an elite player. R.Honda’s 3 inputs make watching him less exciting because you know that the player is only capable of doing HHS because they are less skilled and are being assisted by dumber and easier inputs.
[media=youtube]V6KXcqPx7tQ[/media]
Listen to Seth Killian’s comments at the start of the match. He purposefully points out that Kusumondo was able to open the round with fierce HHS twice in a row. Why does he point it out? Because opening fierce hands back to back has a very high level of execution required. Stuff like that, the high level of execution required, was a huge part of the ‘personality’ of ST. Making inputs easier is pathetic in my opinion and it means that the game is being designed for players who need to be babied and can’t practice to get to the level of someone like Kusumondo.
I don’t know about that. I enjoy fighting fireball characters no matter how frustrating it is. Maybe it’s the challenge of it? Or maybe I’m just a freak.
I actually dig the Butt Slam and Headbutt ideas for the most part.
Are you saying make the Butt Slam similar to the HF version? The big problem with the HF version that made that move suck was that it did not knock down so even if you hit with it, you could be retaliated against. To make it worthwhile, it would have to knockdown.
The steerable RH version is an interesting idea for sure but it’s kind of difficult to visualize how much this would actually help him. I think I would rather prefer just giving him the HF versions for all Butt Slams but have them knock down if they hit.
His low jab is his best close range poke. For me, losing the priority on it would not be worth the trade off to cancel off of it.
I can see this working IF it is indeed easier for him to get in. Maybe.
This is also hard to visualize how it would work. What are the options Honda or his opponent for that matter be, after being thrown?
Just to clarify, I piano it too and it’s just certain ticks that seem to have more success against it. It could also be have something to do with playing online, since I almost never play this game offline.
It’s been a while but IIRC from ST, this wasn’t an issue for me.
I’m not a big fan of any stored super so I’m not really with you here. I like the way the new super works for the most part but what I don’t like is the free hit after it’s blocked. I would prefer the opponent having to do it between the hits at least. At least make him work for it.
As an old school player, nothing may ever top ST for me but to say that it needed ‘no changes’ is absurd. And correct me if I’m wrong but the point of Remix was not necessarily to make a ST clone but to make a more balanced game, attract new players and get rid of a lot of the things like throw loops that made the game and the characters one dimensional.
We accepted ST all these years because that’s all we had. There’s always room for improvement and ST certainly is no exception.
I agree that the game probably isn’t the game that ST is overall but it’s been a fun game to play simply because of the balance changes.
Oh, I actually thought of something serious for once. If there was some way to make Hawk dive trade / beat boxer’s cr. fierce more reliably than it does not without changing other match ups, that’d be cool. Maybe Hawk players feel differently, but the fact that Boxer can anti-air Hawk out of dive easily with out committing to something like Headbutt or SRK is kind of silly.
Yeah, it’s true. ST stands against the test of time for a reason. And that’s why I always argue that HDR’s biggest crime was not changing enough and changing too little. It either needed to be a super subtle tweak, or a whole new game. Basically, the difference really comes down to two mind sets, right? Embrace the flaws of ST, which is what we’ve done for 10 years, or figure that they ARE flaws and probably do need to be fixed.
I’ve already been at the stance, now, that even though HDR is more balanced, I prefer ST, so I’m right there with you on ST should just be left alone. But that’s not what this thread is about, is it? So in spirit of this thread, if we were to adopt the second mentality, and figure that some things should be tweaked, this is how I would change Honda. And the only way to make Honda fun, IMO, would be to do a slight overhaul on him.
Agreed. But I do disagree that Honda is fun. Honda is only fun for the person who uses Honda. My comment about Honda not being fun falls MORE on the side of Honda’s opponent, not the person using Honda. Sure, it becomes a test of wills keeping him out as best as possible or a test of wills trying to break the great wall of Japan as best as possible, but still: you see things like Kusumondo facing Valle and Choi at Evo, and you shed a tear for the poor Sumo. At the same time, I fight Honda with Cammy and I literally might as well just turn to my opponent and say, “GG!” right when he picks the character. There definitely is enough to warrant, at least, a DISCUSSION on re-balancing ST/HDR. The game is a great game, but that doesn’t mean we can’t all sit here and fantasize what it would be like if we had had the chance to tweak the game.
I am the one person who hates the dumbed down inputs the most. I can’t stand them and have been against them from the start. The choice of mine to lower the number of inputs for the Hand Slaps was NOT as a means by which to aid people in actually doing the moves, but to aid in Honda’s offensive capabilities. For me, the difficulty of a move NEEDS to be balanced against their usefulness, and it’s something I wholly acknowledge. However, if I argue that a move with an easier input NEEDS to be made less powerful because of its accessibility, I’m also willing to admit that a move that might not be powerful enough can be made MORE useful as a weapon if its accessibility improved. My goal isn’t to dumb down inputs, but to make Hand Slaps an actual offensive weapon. It’s still one that is super awkward to use, because it’s still mashing, but at least it’s more practical. That’s all.
Again, just to make sure my point is reiterated, the suggestion I made was not for babying inputs or to aid those who have no dexterity. You’ve seen me argue the opposite a million times here already, I’m sure. The goal is simply to make the move more accessible without changing it to a QCF motion or something like that.
Don’t make me answer that.
Yes, definitely. 100% knock down on first hits for sure. Otherwise, it would be nigh useless.
It’s mostly for use against Fireball characters. For the most part, in ST, if you did the Roundhouse Butt Slam, it was pretty trivial for good Shotos to walk up where it will land and Sweep you. My goal is to leave that in the game, but to add a new layer to it (again, not completing removing what we know, but adding to it). Let’s call perfect distance for Sweep vs. Roundhouse Butt Slam in ST distance “A”. If you can swerve just far enough forward so that, at “A”, you land on Ryu’s body, then “A” isn’t guaranteed anymore. And if you hold BACK so you can swerve far enough away so that, at “A”, Ryu can’t reach you with a sweep, then that distance isn’t necessarily good to keep Honda out.
Again, the swerving would be very subtle, so Vega cross-up mind games shouldn’t be effective. But that window of distance where you’ll land on Ryu and where his Sweep will miss is a very SMALL window. But it would enough so that the Shoto, after throwing a Fireball, still has to kinda figure out which one you are gonna do. If he thinks you are gonna run by drifting back and you actually drift forward, he’ll have to DP or Block or get hit. Most Ryus would panic and Block, and now you’re in, but, to be fair, you have no Specials charged now (because you had to hold Forward). Your options are limited now, most people will assume you’ll go for ticks. But you won’t have DP-like Butt Slam so missile priority Headbutts. And are you willing to do a HHS block string that will push you out after you just got in? So because you aren’t charged, the mind games are compressed, making the situation not necessarily overpowered for Honda, but not completely useless as a means to get in.
If he thinks you’re gonna attack by drifting forward, you can hold back, watch him whiff a Low Roundhouse, and Headbutt him in response because you are holding back and can charge. HOWEVER, if the Ryu is smart and knows he’ll miss, he can throw a Fireball at you because you do not have a Butt Slam charged: there’s no way to go through anymore. So he can throw Fireballs, but at least, after you block it, more than likely you’ll no longer be a full screen away, which is actually a goal of Honda’s: to get closer than that full screen distance. Because now you have things like trade Stand Roundhouse and Floating Fierce at that range to keep Ryu honest, but it’s still in Ryu’s favor, which is GOOD because you’re pulling a defensive maneuver. However, if you have a Super, then things get hairy, because drifting back lets you keep a Super charged. So now Ryu has to think about it, and it becomes more powerful. But because the Super can be hit between the Headbutts, it’s not a freebie, and you, as Honda, still have to think about not getting baited into blowing your Super on nothing, but you still need to do it early enough to successfully blow THROUGH the Fireball.
I just think the whole situation opens up a lot more with the ability to slightly drift. Again, from where Honda reaches the peak of the Butt Slam, he can’t go THAT far left or right, so he won’t have crazy steering on the way down to cause any sort of Vega mix ups. You’ll know just about where he can land and to do those mixups, he’ll have to have PERFECT positioning everytime to be at the peak of the Butt Slam RIGHT above your head, and considering he can’t walk while charging this move, that won’t happen often at all.
Fair call. How about Stand Jab? I just wanna give Honda easy access to a move that can be canceled easier into a Headbutt or a Hand Slap for better offense. Low Short is okay, but too hard to cancel into Hand Slaps.
Well, it would be exactly the same options that ST has now. I would just make Honda’s animation mirror imaged (which makes more sense, actually, if you think about what the throw is… how does he get the opponent behind him so fast to slam over his head? ^_^). The options would be exactly the same. He just does the Oicho throw in the other direction.
True. I mean, I play the game, for example, against Balrogs, and every time Rog charges, I just hit Jab. If he EVER does the Kick rush, I throw him. If he does a straight Rush, I block (because I hit it after Block Stun timing). Dorky tricks like that. I’m never NOT storing Oichos. Plus I get it randomly a lot, by accident. Which obviously means if it weren’t there, I should have the proper result: no reward for something I didn’t plan.
Does it have bigger delay than before? I didn’t know. But yeah, I only want to keep the stored Super for the Jab Headbutt, Super trick. Just gives him one more option to get in on Fireballs by stopping short and gaining distance with the threat of the Super. Otherwise, I would totally get rid of it. It’s just a way I can think of to help Honda on the offensive side of things more.
When I use Stored Ochio, I beat pretty much every tick attempt that comes my way. My chances increase GREATLY of winning those grab wars. Maybe it’s 'cause I piano it, giving me 6 inputs in short period of time without ever leaving D/B. You don’t need reaction timing to do the motion. shrug