the cr.mk does not beat balrogs low punches, balrogs dashing uppers have a hotbox that it extends upwards, so is a AA or high attacks, its the low attacks that are in question. The video does not show guiles cr.mk vs rogs special/normal low punches. also right at the end, the buffala head butt beats flash kick…which is bull shit
Whoa I never knew there was another Marsgatti2009 somewhere lol
But anyways its been like this for how many years now, just as corrosive said the low forward is not coming back unfortunately so we will just have to make due with what is his low forward now. Just my opinion as shari has posted (a real message from me lol) take care
:lol: :lol: We should end the thread on this pic, its jokes. Well played.
The Last part was pretty funny lol
Guile’s standing short doesn’t beat low rush?
Edit: My bad, I forgot back + short gives you bazooka knee.
Give Guile a few extra frames of recovery on his sonic boom. I imagine it will make the Zangief matchup slightly less frustrating. Should also help Honda and Cammy.
So make honda top tier? Honda needs to lose to somebody, if you let him get in even easier on projectile fighters you’ve made him better, but those characters that already get trashed by him are still getting trashed by him. Does torpedo being safe on block and knockdown on hit that necessary and a AA, and now the jab and medium(your idea) have fireball destroying properties?
So I was playing an Guile player the other day and he didn’t seem to have any trouble stuffing my Low Rushes. His greatest defense seemed to be cr. jab, though I got hit by a few cr. forwards. It might also be worth while for Guile players to learn when to use the backward sabot kick thing. Seems like that hit box might be ideal for countering Low Rush, but given it’s 10 frame start up it might have to be a psychic counter only.
Crouching Guile is a difficult thing to handle. If he was simply spamming the Cr. jab and Cr. Forward, a simple TAP could help… Or did ya try walking up close, then crouching yourself? A fierce headbutt has enough range to hit anyone that feels the need to do Cr. Jab repeatedly… Rog’s Cr. Forward has higher priority than Guile’s Cr. Forward I believe, so you might wanna try that as well.
Yeah, he didn’t give me too much trouble, but I wanted to point out that Guile does have normals that seem to work against Low Rushes. Also, I still think Guile’s Low Foward is a useful move in this match up even with it’s slow start up. It’s got decent range so Guile can poke from further than most other characters. Guile players just shouldn’t wiff it to control space like they could with most other match ups.
Now, I don’t know about Guile, but I think we can all agree that Sirlin made a mistake when he took [media=youtube]wCseWmfIjzU"[/media] out of Ken’s move-set.
It’s only real use outside of a piano reversal is catching people off guard who think they are clever by jumping back and using a late hit to knock Honda out of a HP headbutt (shoto/sagat HK, Vega HP). If you use a MP headbutt, it will stop right before getting in range of that counter and also sets you up nicely with a downback charge if you did it right.
Oh I agree with you here; it would be of far greater importance to alter Honda’s recovery range and speed so that it could at least be possible for some characters (especially the grapplers) some way to punish/reversal him. Stored Ochio getting pulled would make much more sense first as well. He definitely doesn’t need to just be getting buffed here. That all said, though, giving Honda a tight solution to a way from a good distance to potentially pop a fireballer that doesn’t leave him at sweep range would be killer. This move in particular would really take some serious playtesting though; your concern is definitely warranted.
The question is can you make torpedo better against fireballers to better even the match while simultaneously making it worse against non fireballers. Is torpedo his main weapon against projectile users? If not, it could use a slight nerf while improving some of his other stuff. Still though, you have to watch out for improving the other stuff and him still being too much for the non fireballers.
No stored ochio, and a whiff could be the answer with less or almost no safeness on blocked torpedo.
If, say, Honda’s headbutts were to travel around half the distance back that they did now once they make contact, it could fulfill both of those roles.
It would help against fireballers a little because if you were to connect, you’d be a bit closer. It would also leave him closer against non-fireballers, of course, but in the event they were to block it, they could actually have a chance to react and punish if they were fast enough. This would compliment his defensive flavor very well; considering how fast and relatively safe the move is, this would be about the only change to the move that would reach the desired outcome against both types of opponent. Decreasing his recovery time at the end of the move would be out of flavor for the fat bastard, I think.
Having a Ochio whiff, on the other hand, would be a bit excessive if he were to have the stored property removed. It should be one or the other, but not both. Simply removing the store property means you’d have to actually think to use it, though in practice it’s still very defensive (despite having a greater chance to miss).
Giving Honda one more way to decently get around fireballs that is still very limited would give his fireballing opponents at any range short of full screen something they’re not used to dealing with: a variety of options. Fireballers can always just wait a split second, or change fireball speeds against him. Outside of half a screen away, what can Honda do? Try to get near the point just past the walk-up sweep range, that’s it. Even with all of the other decent tools Sirlin gave him, he’s just not a threat for any decent shoto, Guile, DeeJay, and so on when he’s past half a screen away. His other moves recover so long that maneuvering them through fireballs means getting SRKed/upkicked or swept. If he had just those few initial frames on strong headbutt, though, it would open up your opponent to a real guessing game. If Honda tries from too far away, opponents could still read and counter pretty regularly, though not with just a mindless sweep (finally). They’d have to try a special of some sort, or risk their own tightly timed normal to beat him (which could end up in a very unfavorable trade for Honda’s opponents). The more important thing is that it would give him two different and distinct ways he could go through the fireballs, so the opponent would really have to pay attention to this. Of course, it’s such a shorter window than the duration of jab headbutt that it’s much riskier to attempt, but it’s still better than not having it.
Just think of what could go through your head as Ryu playing against this version of Honda. Say he’s backed most of the screen away, and you throw a slow fireball at him. He’d have enough time to fierce jump over it, butt slam or jab fireball through it to end up a bit closer, or last second strong headbutt through it and end up in your face or even actually connecting with you. Since your fireball was slow, you will have had time to recover if he tries it, so you could just SRK or throw another fireball. If he gets closer with the jump or slams, you might be tempted to throw a faster fireball to chip him and push him back. If you can still time it right, this shouldn’t be a problem, but you do have to be aware that if you’re just a moment late, he could go right through it, knock you down, and be all over you. By having the threat of the move at all, Honda’s opponents would tend to throw slower fireballs more often when he’s not actively recovering, accordingly, since you yourself would want to make sure you were recovering from your fireball so as not to get immediately bowled over by his headbutt. I really think that the flexibility of the move with the contrast to the existing jab headbutt, coupled with the limitations of the much smaller active window, would be a great way to expand the mind games he could play with what have always been (and still would be, just not as much) his worst matches: fireballers. And of course it would be moot against the rest of the cast, so since he wouldn’t be nearly as safe on block life would be much better for them anyway.
As a Blanka player I would welcome the ability to hit the fat man with a fierce roll after a blocked headbutt. Imagine what that would do in the Fei vs Honda matchup. Block a Headbutt and take off a third of his health. Might be overkill, but it sounds pretty cool to me.
Not to me 
So much Honda hate!! He’s fine as-is :tup:
Make a block headbutt punishable and Honda becomes possibly the worst character in the game, not to mention absolutely boring to use (look at SFIV Honda).
Headbutting at Blanka (and a lot of characters for that matter) is so dangerous as it is. Blanka has great options (electricity, jumping short) to deter you from wanting to headbutt.
One of the reasons I disagree with stored ochio is because its a glitch, I don’t like chun’s stored super either, and I honestly believe it should be removed. Unless you can prove it was intentional, neither should be there.
For ochio whiff, why should he get a NE command throw with no whiff at this point, when HDR went in the direction of creating whiffs for command throws(y’know cause hawk was OP). All of gief’s command throws have some kind of whiff. As do hawk. Their supers I don’t actually know, but why should honda be allowed to keep a NE no whiff throw that may have priority over regular throws still can’t remember how those throw explanations end :lol:
Stored Oicho is vastly overrated for me so I’d be in favor of removing it. Take it out and I don’t think it really changes his matchups. Some of the best tick setups in the game (ken air jab-HK-kneebash, blanka crossup-stand jab-bite, boxer headbutt-grab, boxer crouch forward-grab, etc.) work effectively even against stored Oicho like they do against any character.
Players generally don’t attempt to tick throw Honda for the same reasons they generally don’t try it against Zangief or Hawk. It’s not because of the storage properties of the Oicho but rather the range of those character’s special throws and risk-reward involved in attempting it.
I’d even be in favor of giving it a whiff because whiffs occur so infrequently, I don’t think it would make much of a difference either. But you have to take into consideration that it does less damage and has less range than Zangief or Hawk but with a slightly favorable motion. You might need to increase the damage or range if you want to even it out with all the nerfs.