here are some things i think need to be balanced or fixed in general,
throw ranges - have a standardized throw range for all characters throws excluding command throws. this distance should be point blank or pretty damn close.
grabs - make the grabber be thrown far enough so that they can not repeat the situation. throw loops are tough on charge characters, especially boxers throw loop since he can change sides to poke you on and then repeat.
hit stun/dizzy - imo the game is way way way too inconstant with how it deals dizzys, when akuma lose 3/4 of his life with in 5 seconds he should be dizzied… end of story
other things that i feel affect game play, these things may not be unique to hd remix and/or could also be caused by lag or internet play
slow down during hit stun - never should i be punished because the game has slowed down enough for the opponent to actually think and counter my attack. like wise i should never be punished when i hit an opponent with a sonic boom and then go for the back hand only to have it come our a few frames and be countered by the opponent.
now here’s where i start talking out of my ass because i don’t really know the character like i do my guile, but after playing numerous matches up i think some of these things need to be changed.
dictator - put more recovery time on his scissors kicks, also put more recovery time on his super.
honda - make headbutt less safe, it has too much push back for honda, removal of stored ochio throw
blanka - make horizontal ball less safe, same problem as Honda
chun li - head stomp seems too random, its hard to tell where to block
I really can’t respond that well to most of your changes, but in regards to Blanka Ball, if you’ve ever played VST Blanka, you’d know why Sirlin made it safe. Its’ fine that way.
Absolutely disagree. The varying throw ranges work. Having individual characters gain tactical advantages in various situations through their throws is not a problem. The system has been shown to work, and work well for the most part. Perhaps some individual cases I would agree with a change or two, but I could not ever support a standardized throw range for all characters’ normal throws, much less making it point-blank.
Again, tactical advantages like this are not inherently a bad thing. I like throw loop situations, because none of them is guaranteed–it’s just an advantageous position, and ST/HDR is largely a game of gaining advantageous positions while avoiding disadvantageous ones. Again, on a case by case basis, I can see some changes being made, but an across-the-board rule would be out of the question if it were up to me.
I’ve heard people make the opposite argument; that the dizzy system is so consistent that it paves the way for ToD’s that are more reliable than if it were somewhat more random (after all, if that first combo has a random chance not to get the dizzy, you don’t have a ToD). That said, I’m pretty happy with the dizzy system as is, but would support minor tweaking to it.
Homogenizing throw ranges would ultimately serve to eliminate a lot of the character dynamics that make this game special. Other factors that weigh in are walk speed, abilities to zone and get in, etc, so even making the ranges the same would still yield characters who are better at throwing than others. So basically…no.
That’s Boxer’s strength, not the charge characters’ weaknesses. Every one of them have either reversal specials or counter throws they can use to get out of the situation though. His grab already got nerfed in both damage and range from ST to HDR. This really is a major part of the SFII engine; it’s something you’re going to have to learn to deal with, without changing the majority of the cast (and overall flavor of the game).
Could be a tad more consistent, but not vital. It does add a sense of chance to the bouts that wouldn’t exist otherwise. If anything, a dip switch for consistent dizzy scaling, or even no dizzies at all, would be nice for local matches. Other than that, though, not really a problem.
There is a dip switch for this; after playing with it for a little while I actually preferred it as you say, with no slowdown. At least you have the option in locals already.
ugh…thinking things out critically really goes a long way, man. Seriously. Regardless, let’s hear what you have to say.
Why? He is the quintessential pressure character, with nearly all offense and relatively little defense. Taking away his best ways to keep that pressure would make him totally worthless. Absolutely no way you’ll ever see these changes.
Wow…okay, these (or some very close variation thereof) actually make sense. Wouldn’t touch the startup of the headbutts at all; just some combination of recovery times and distances. Something along the lines of closer, but maybe a touch faster recovery so that reversal command grabs or faster specials/supers could punish him if he gets spammy with it. If they’re a split second late, though, he should himself be able to react and punish. Stored Ochio’s got to go, though, definitely agreed.
Not even remotely the same problem, for three main reasons. Blanka has zero invulnerability on his horizontal ball, a much worse hitbox setup than Honda’s headbutt, and no knockdown. It’s faster though, and it hits on the first frame, which are his strengths with this. Repeating this move openly with Blanka is a very bad idea even without the extra damage penalty Sirlin gave it, because everyone has a good way to punish it if they know it’s coming. Since Blanka is geared more toward offense overall, and Honda is geared toward defense, it makes more sense to give Honda the move that should be safer throughout as a counter to make it better to react with, and Blanka the riskier one to openly use, but that doesn’t get punished (mostly) for connecting to reward using it correctly.
Do you mean the knee bash, maybe? It’s much easier to block than in VST. If you really are referring to her heel/head stomp, you really just need to learn to block better, because there are far more dangerous cross-ups in the game.
Actually he did. Guile’s cr Forward was nerfed a little in CE and HF but it was still godly. It’s in Super SFII that it was nerfed heavily.
But that still doesn’t change the fact that some people whine too much about it. The funny thing is, that nerf to Guile’s cr Forward compressed the tiers much more than any other change to the game. Take Dhalsim for example. He was also top tier in WW just like Guile. His limbs were tough to hit, even with psychic Shoryukens. And yet, Dhalsim is still top tier in ST. Why is that? Guile and Dhalsim were both nerfed in the same way, for the same reason. They both had long range pokes that were tough to beat. But how come Guile isn’t still top tier in ST? That’s cuz HF Guiie’s cr Forward was the only thing that made him top tier. Take it away and he drops to mid tier convincingly. But Dhalsim was top tier for a variety of reasons, mainly cuz of his character design, and cuz he’s so versatile and can adapt to almost any matchup.
That’s also the reason why it’s so tough to get good with Dhalsim. You have to know how to use everything he has, not just his long range limbs. But with Guile, the HF cr Forward was a brain dead tactic, kinda like stored Oichio. The opponent is near? Just throw out cr Forward mindlessly, and if they jump, you have the d charge to aa with Somersault. Because that’s how good the cr Forward was. The only option you had against it was to jump over it. There was no way to get near Guile without leaving the ground. Once the cr Forward got nerfed, Guile players had to actually think. LOL And the good thing about it is, characters like Zangief and Honda actually stood a chance against Guile in Super and ST, where before, they were getting demolished in HF. But if you ask Zangief or Hawk players, they’ll tell you that even in ST, Guile’s nerfed cr Forward is still a deadly weapon, and it is IMO.
Not even Ryu and Ken’s completely invincible Shoryukens were as dominating as Guile’s HF cr Forward. As a Ryu and Ken player myself, I did whine about losing the completely invincible Shoryukens for a long time, but ever since HDR dropped, and my SF skills got better, I’m at a point now where not only do I not need completely invincible Shoryukens to win, but I wouldn’t even mind if Ken lost his completely invincible Strong Shoryuken now. I just wish the Guile whiners would just focus on getting better, instead of clinging to past glory. Either that, or go play HF. = J
When I said realistically it isn’t reliable to use lariats to stuff headbutts, I meant that it is easier said than done to lariat at the last moment vs. random headbutts. Even when I see headbutts coming I fail to lariat them properly. I know it wouldn’t really be a big deal, but I feel that the MU is so terrible that Zangief needs one less thing to worry about.
I agree in the sense that he doesn’t need to use his horizontall balls to win that MU at all. However, being able to 100% stuff them with kick lariats means two things. He can punish them heavily 100% of the time with a knockdown and some nice damage. He can tick and then kick lariat to beat a reversal ball attempt very nicely. If I safe jump Honda with Gief and see a reversal headbutt coming, lariat as is can’t be relied on. Random headbutts being more easily punishable is also a good thing considering Zangief doesn’t have the priority in general to stuff them consistently with anything threatening. Tbh Blanka would be 3x more annoying if kick lariat didn’t flat out beat horizontall balls.
I think your ideas on improving the SBK are pretty reasonable. I’m not sure she needs help vs splashes since she beats repeated splashes pretty easily with close mk.
I think the ideas Sirlin used to make Honda less polarized were pretty good. If he went further with the existing ideas I think Honda would have been a lot less polarized MU wise. If jab headbutt went as farther and had less recovery when whiffed but became unsafe on block it would be more fair vs. projectiles and worse as a reversal. His super should nullify meaty fireballs and be safe on block. HHS should get a bit less priority so aerials and sweeps beat it more often. Tbh I also think it was a terrible idea to give him a safe negative edge throw. His oicho throw probably needs a drastic overhaul like taking out the stored property or a new (not so safe) motion. I’m not really a Honda player so don’t take my ideas too seriously.
Take you seriously? Don’t worry Rashid we Honda players won’t. LOL j/k man. Despite Sirlin’s buffs and nerfs. Honda is not considered top-tier character but does in fact has the potential of giving projectile characters a much harder time to zone out. Honda definitely needs the safe negative-edge throw, especially to answer cross ups jabs or short kicks shenanigans (i.e Blanka, Dee Jay, etc).
With respect to Gief, I think Honda in this match has a lot of good options to tame the grizzly Gief. However, Gief does have a safe answer for Honda’s strong/fierce HHS; crouching roundhouse kick if outside of SPD range. Gief’s footsweep hitbox will knock Honda’s HHS clean (no trade). Otherwise if Honda tries HHS too close, he risk being SPD. Honda HHS mixup is still effective in this matchup as long as the Gief player is not effective in mixing up the crouching kick in reaction to HHS. Effectiveness for either characters simply comes down to positioning and reaction. I’m basing this with my numerous matches against TheGreatMole and Snake Eyes…two of HDR’s most phenomonal “active” Gief players.
As bias as I am when it comes to Honda, I would leave the stored oichio throws in, that’s what makes Honda fun in HDR. Otherwise, if stored oichio has to go then I would say remove the priority of all characters that can stuff any of Honda’s charge attacks with a mere jab, including Honda’s supers (ala Sim match up).
guiles low forward was a good move, but other characters have simular ‘godly’ moves or normals which make them extremly diificult to beat. Take balrog Vs guile, all of balrogs normals cleanly beat guiles normals. His special moves can still hit guile through a boom and at times through a flash kick. To truly balance that matchup guile would need that old low forward, that way balrog would not be able to simply smash guile into submission a balrog player would have use some strategy to beat guile rather relying on balrogs over powered normals. Guiles low forward has such a long starup up time that as a defensive poke its almost usless because it takes so long to actually hit and its piority is too low. The same argument used to nerf guiles low forward can be applied to rog, sim and vega in ST and hdr
I aslso agree with the guy that said all throw ranges should be standardised apart from command throws. Chracters that are quick already have an advantage when it comes to throws because they can get in range quickly
Also I think that each character should have 1 normal move that can be used as a reversal, this would help beginners who maybe cant do a special move reversal properly. Its not a matter of getting better, there are design flaws in various matchups which skill alone cannot compensate for. It just seems to me like the nerfing of the low forward effect on all guiles matchups was not properly thought through in transition to ST and HDR. HDR was a chance to put some thought into it but the opportunity was missed, thus we have vega, sim and rog having rediculas power in the guile matchup.
vega and rog can spam their normals against guile and nobody has a problem with that, yet calls to restore guile proper low forward to balance these matchups are met with hostility… I know it probely wont get restored, my point is that in ST and HDR there are still matchups where dominace is decided by the inability of character to counter a move or special move of another character.
guiles current low forward makes life easier for honda and gief, but it makes life way too easy for rog and vega…and this is my point…the various nerfs and buffs that have been made were not properly debated or tested for the effects on each matchup. Who was David Sirlin guile advisor when he was lead designer for HDR???..who ever it was didnt do guile justice as the only useful thing guile got was the over head
Balancing efforts should go toward nerfing Claw and Boxer toward Guile, not the other way around. The ideal is to compress tiers, not just shuffle who’s in what tier. Giving Guile’s his old cr. forward back is a decent idea, but then you’d have to alter low tiers to help them keep up.
Well, now that the O.characters are gone (R.Hawk doesn’t count, but he’s close), the only character with truly ludicrous hitboxes is Akuma…look how much everyone loves playing against him. If Guile could control the space in front with that old cr.mk and above with the flash kick, he’d be stupid good in a way that would diminish the dynamics of the game overall. Definitely feel your point, though; some matches are beyond a normal grind when the relative limitations become apparent, like several of the low-tier league against Honda.
Two random observations:
-T.Hawk has a small “stray” hitbox above his head when he slides on the ground after his dive (in both ST versions and HDR). Presumably this is so that it’s just a little easier to mash jabs or the like for most characters to keep him out, since before HDR he was more scary when he got in. Now that he’s not almost completely safe once he does, removing this little hitbox would be nice to make some of his slide > bait tricks a bit more viable. Opponents still can jab it pretty easily when he’s airborne, and of course this would change nothing for counters like headbutts, SRKs, and so on. Just if they get carried away mashing, you could take advantage of it with the proper spacing, timing, and read on your opponent (as it should be).
-Cammy’s slide after hooligan roll would be much better if the blue hitbox didn’t appear before the red one. She’s in the air long enough with every version so that you can see it coming to counter while she’s still airborne. It’s not a trick you could readily repeat and abuse accordingly. If she were to land too close, landing on a limb would still trade most times, and even beat her out of it with a few of the better pokes. That’s the beauty of this; it gives her two nice things she could really use: a real reason to use jab and strong roll (since she’d land farther away she’d be more likely to beat the sweep when she slides when done correctly), and another way to get in on fireballers that isn’t foolproof by any means, but doesn’t suck either. Even Gief has the tools with his great sweep, kick lariat, and of course the ability to hit her before she hits the ground. Also note that if she goes too shallow, she still would have the red hitbox disappear before the end of the move just as before, so she could still get poked/swept. Of course that would be more risky since she could go for something else, but worst-case it doesn’t leave her at an advantage on block, so you can still just block it and be okay as well. It would create more dynamic gameplay and address some of her direct weaknesses in a manner that isn’t overbearing or abusive.
I’ll end this with a question for the Honda lovers…how often do you use strong headbutt (not counting piano reversals)? I know once in awhile you can use it similarly to Blanka’s ball when it falls just short, but in practice I very rarely see this. I had this idea for him: give only the startup/invincible frames of that move the ability to destroy fireballs. Would be great for stopping meaty fireballs from getting you, but your timing would have to be much tighter to not eat one instead. This one’s really experimental though, I’ll admit, but it would really help give him at least something more to get in better from further away. Fireballers would actually have to actively think a bit more to set him up, though with such a tight window to actually destroy the fireball just lagging them by a split second (or faking with Ryu) could still keep him in check. He could also have the distance travelled slightly reduced (like the jab version was in HDR) if the speed and distance afterwards are too much to handle. Man I wish we had access to the engine and programmers Sirlin had
to address the rog/vega issue, the old cr.mk would be the perfect answer BUT, like you said it would affect the other matchups. What I would do its just improve thr start up time of the cr.mk and make it trade with all sides & all balrogs low punches. That, or make so that the the move hit cleanly or trade with those other moves as a result of proper timing. This is what currently happens with deejays slide. it beats guiles cr.mk, but if guile can time it right, it wins or trades.
to address the rog/vega issue, the old cr.mk would be the perfect answer BUT, like you said it would affect the other matchups. What I would do its just improve thr start up time of the cr.mk and make it trade with all sides & all balrogs low punches. That, or make so that the the move hit cleanly or trade with those other moves as a result of proper timing. This is what currently happens with deejays slide. it beats guiles cr.mk, but if guile can time it right, it wins or trades.
