Rebalancing ST Remix

Classic Fighting Games SSF2T: HD Remix
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My thoughts on Boxer:

Does boxer’s low rush come out at the same speed as his high straight rush (they seem to be) ? If not I think the offset of using boxers low rush would be that it is slower than his straight rush, which is not used nearly as much. I mean it’s almost always better to low rush (at long range) than straight high rush. Maybe I am completely wrong on this, as I am no expert on the game yet, I think some sort of change should occur between them so that high straight rush would be used a lil more. I was thinking low rush be slower (which it really should be and I think it is like that in SFIV), but that may piss off the boxer players way too much. You usually low rush after a knockdown, so a slower rush in that situation would not really hurt as you’d only need to change the speed in which you initiate the move. This would make him a bit weaker, unless the properties of the high straight rush were changed a lil (IE make it stronger).

With my limited experience with Cammy I would actually suggest a jumping dive kick of some sort. I think this would fit her moveset and give her a bit more rush down options. Off the top of my head that is what I had been thinking while playing her. A new animation may have to be drawn for it, so take this with a grain of salt.

Just me rambling…

642

sometimes straight rushes can be used as a sudo ant-air.

just saying.

643

Isn’t the rush uppercut better than the straight for anti air, when they are low to the ground and he has two normals a ducking and standing that are valid for anti-air ocassions. I think he needs more of an emphasis on the straight rush being a lil better for grounded and standing opponents, instead of the low rush being soo good in that and many other instances. Straight rush is just his weakest move (as I think it whiffs on most crouching opponents) and low rush is just too good most of the time and is just as fast (i think).

644

Good point. People just need to watch out for the move and actually wait for the fireball to come out. Nobody said it was omni-potent either, but nearly everybody acts like its super amazing. Alex Wolfe even said it was broken.

That’s pretty much why.

645

re: shoto sweep > fireball

Cool; it’s too popular to get tweaked. The Boxer matchup points you listed are definitely valid as well. It’s not totally unavoidable either. I concede :lol:

re: Cammy

If there was a way to give her a dive kick, that would be amazing. As you’ve said, I really doubt Capcom would go out of the way to draw any new animation though, since that really would require more money going to Udon. So here’s a lot of suggestions for her rolled up into one. If Cammy were to be able to cancel Hooligan into her animation for j.strong that could come down at a sharp angle, while having the same nice hitbox as her neutral j.strong (or O.Cammy’s towards/away j.st, same thing), it would give her some great tricks as well as a reason to use non-fierce hooligans more often. Baiting moves and hitting HHS for starters sound great. Hooligan > press punch > yay.

Her SBF is much better, but it’s still too easy to counter. The hitbox on her head could be shaved a few pixels on the bottom so that it goes through Ken’s and Chun Li’s fireballs properly, for starters. More importantly, shave a few frames off the time when she lands from her hop before her fist comes out. She’s hittable at the head the entire time, and it’s too easy to sweep her without risk. With fewer vulnerable frames at her feet, it at least gives her more of a chance to trade instead of flat-out lose, even if it’s unfavorable (which from the first hit of SBF would most often be the case) it’s still better than no damage. Don’t make it totally unhittable before her active hitting frames, just trim it down to make it close.

re: Boxer

He has a brutal rushdown that shouldn’t be touched. The only tweaks he should get, if any, are to correct slowdown and input bugs he received from ST to HDR.

re: Chun Li

She needs more ground SBK options. blitzfu and several others have hit it on the head regarding its inability to escape as well as her old one, so since all three versions are so damned similar (yet the short version’s the only one worth using), something should be done. Either have:

-her old short horizontal SBK on short, her new short SBK on forward, and that wacky arc into air horizontal SBK on roundhouse

-a little (like a few frames) more start-up invincibility on short, then progressively less so on stronger buttons, but with faster start-up to differentiate them and make them viable options

The only way to keep her new air SBK with heel stomp tricks intact without screwing up attempts to jump kick from ground charge would be to make it a classic hurricane kick motion in the air. Pretty much every later version of Chun Li is a mix of charge, mash, and quarter or half circle moves, so this wouldn’t be unprecedented. Other than that, just revert the damned move back to what it was so we don’t accidentally pull the move off repeatedly.

646

Im not complaining about the fake fireball on account of most characters being given moves to get around fireball traps. But yes I would say this is omnipotent against characters such as blanka. I dont main ryu or play with him most of time by any means, but you cant tell me its not fun to use ryu’s bnb Jumping :hk:, crouching :mk, cancel into a fake fireball(with the assumption that it gets blocked), then go for a throw or f+:mp: overhead link into crouching :hk: sweep.

647

She actually already has a viable dive kick animation…the sliding kick animation. If she does the animation in the air, it’s the same effect we’re going for. She would just need to pause and then head downward like she does in CvS2.

I absolutely love your Chun Li suggestions, by the way. I’d been trying to think of something along those lines, but couldn’t put it into words.

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Except now like bison, he(boxer) gets around fireballs better.

649

Yeah bro. Same principle for Honda as Balrog, except with reversal Sumo Splash or Super. Having said that, there are some instances I’ve noticed where the reversal Super will still get hit by the Hadoken (on startup), even from max range. However, IDK if this has to do with Ryu or Honda being in the corner or other situations, but I think it really has to do with the absolute max range of the sweep. Anything less (like in between mid and max), and I think Honda’s reversal Super will not punish. But at max range, it’s golden.

Other fireball characters also have the same dilemma, not just Ryu and Ken. Dhalsim is a big victim of reversal Supers after his cr.Forward into Yoga Fire. It’s not a combo even at point blank range, tho the cr.Forward is cancellable. This happens a lot against characters like Balrog that are just itching to get in on Dhalsim and pound him. I can’t count how many times I’ve been hit by Balrog’s reversal Super when I wasn’t paying attention to his meter after poking him out with cr.Forward into Yoga Fire.

Chun Li’s max range cr.Forward/st.Strong into Fierce Kikkoken is also counterable I believe, tho I’m not a 100% sure about her. Sagat’s Shot combos are solid, Guile and Dee Jay only use close range normals to cancel their fireballs plus their recovery is very fast (tho Dee Jay’s max range cr.Fierce into Max Out may be susceptible to counterattack, not a 100% sure) and Akuma is obviously in the same boat as Ryu and Ken.

650

It IS super amazing!

Waiting for the actual fireball itself would mean delaying your reaction even more. If it’s a fast fireball good chance the fireball will catch you as you jump. Aside from the fact that you are letting your opening slip by and risk getting AA’d. Throwing a fireball from the wrong range used to be a risk, but now, who cares. *Ay my name is Ryu and I dare you, I double dare you react to my fireball one more time. *

And I thought the fake fireball was to help ryu fight Dhalsim? That was the original idea IIRC. Anyways, (edit) dumb arguement from sirlin, why give people answers and then take away the answers by having to guess or delay to the point where those answers wont work. Bad gamedesign imo. Also, him worrying so much about Ryu (when really there is nothing wrong with him without the fake) is just too silly when other characters are still coping with the same nigh impossible matchups.

Yeah, I’m a bit bitter. Not because of the bad matchups I have to deal because I’ve come to terms with them them since ST, but because he literally ignored some of the hardest ones* in a project that was supposed to be about balancing. To the point where he actually gave Deejay a BUFF in the blanka/deejay fight.

*Dude was like yea we took care of blankas bad matchups when he pretty much only covered Ryu (who is now even harder to get into with blanka due to fake fireball). Blanka vs Boxer and Deejay, some of the hardest matchups in the game didn’t even get a mention.

651

Alot of the retarded matchups are still retarded, especially with fei buffed…er I mean better flamekick, oh wait no now it has flashkick recovery. :rofl:

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Fulaani, the “its better against Dhalsim” argument was Choi’s argument, not Sirlins. I posted Sirlins thoughts. The reason Im defending the fake fb is because I have yet to see this amazing power, and I’ve been playing since December. Sure, I have fallen for it a couple times, but I usually just brush it off. You grow instincts on when Ryu is actually gonna throw out a fake and a real one, but apparently very few people have that.

653

My problem with it is that it forces the opponent to guard even though it has no hitting frames, and it makes them guard across the screen, and can impair their movement.

I’ve seen a guy spam fake fb on PSN, and you couldn’t move backwards. You couldn’t move forward or jump cause of srk, shoto pokes.

He’s a good ryu, its just sometimes he shits around with fake fb, and you can’t back up!

654

Then jump backwards?

655

i was jking when i said i wanted the fake fireball taken out

i think the “fake” crap sirlin did with ryu, bison and vega was genious.

656

Here’s my retard idea to fix Honda that will never come to pass:

  1. All headbutts go through fireballs.
  2. Reduce headbutt damage.
  3. Remove the headbutt invulnerability so it doesn’t stuff every-fucking-thing.
  4. Remove Ochio store.

Boom. Now you’ve got a unique playstyle, and all of his super-lopsided matchups issues are fixed. Of course then you’ve got to rebalance him for normals and such, but he ceases to be a 2-8/8-2 matchup character.

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Even if they were mentioned somewhere, they weren’t readily addressed. It’s interesting that he got a little better, but didn’t really move in the tier placings. The extra damage on countered ball (in exchange for being more safe) hurts him more than it helps him in matches where he can still get hit afterward. It still perplexes me that the main example Sirlin gave for no extra damage on ball was Zangief! He doesn’t need to ball at all to dominate Gief, and more importantly, ball doesn’t break apart Gief’s game in the least. Horizontal roll just doesn’t have the hitbox to totally dominate any member of the cast! Gief has spam crouch jab, any number of jumping attacks (which can be used backwards on reaction if Blanka gets sloppy), and kick lariat TOTALLY owns it. If anything, it’s a Gief issue, not a Blanka one. (Buff Gief’s stamina so he trades better with everything. He is giant, and wrestles bears, the flavor is perfect for the fix.) But yeah, I definitely hear you with some of Blanka’s lingering weak matches.

Couldn’t agree more! Mind games and tricks are great in this game. Even Blanka’s better variety of roll ranges are better at keeping your opponent guessing. Any changes that could further this without breaking balance would be nice.

658

It’s dependent on Ryu’s opponent. I think Hawk (and perhaps Claw) are the only characters where the fake doesn’t seem to help Ryu much. Hawk has the ability to alter his landing with his dive, nullifying one of the best uses of the fake: to get your opponent to jump and land on the following hadouken.

659

I thought about that while writing, but even when I use Dhalsim or Dictator I don’t think its that big of a deal.

660

I think that’s too much, Onaje. Cammy has a decent mix-up game already, and my suggestions would make her a little more unpredictable. In my opinion, characters with the ability to make dramatic changes of direction mid-flight do a lot to bring a match down to the neanderthal level of guessing games. (Fortunately, there are only a couple of these in HDR.)