TxSF will be there to cater the needs of anyone who wanna a “fresh Tekken” experience. Giving on how awful was SCV reception (especially when the last four characters were revealed), I doubt Namcom would risk things again just for the sake of “freshness”.
For the record, if you play any character in a past Tekken game, you will not suffer much adapting or discovering new stuff into the new game, since most of the things do carry over. With a large roster currently, cutting of characters would be more of a disservice to their players than making any good to the series in the long run.
I, for one, like the way things are now. The game is balanced, everyone is viable - and the only ones complaining are people who are lazy enough to learn characters/match-up data.
PS: Eww no. No moar 8-frame jabs. That shit was stupid. Good riddance.
Thats all he talks about is a new release that caters to bringing in new players. How to you go on from TTT2? It has everything, it’s great but where do you go? The first sentence he talks about how great of a game it is, I agree and I love playing it so does he, but you gotta be blind to not see that there is very little new players wanting to jump into it. Not only that, a large portion of the existing “pro” players that I try to convince to play it brush it off as too much time and work. I also realize what SFIV did to bring in so many new faces. Tekken isn’t hard, don’t dumb it down for scrubs…etc TTT2 isn’t going anywhere why would people be scared of a new version that is less convoluted than 60 characters with 100 moves and half of them with unique mini games. Seriously, learning all the 10 strings just to not get randomed out by them is stupid, straight up. I feel like less moves less characters wouold be interesting, it would mean less gimicks and less about memorization. I don’t think thats bad. I also don’t mind how TTT2 is, as I’ve said I have been playing it non stop. Why can’t I have both?
As someone transitioning from Soul Caliber there are some things I find abnoxious about Tekken. I think movement shouldn’t be complex and not require you to aggravate carpal tunnel. Movement should be more about the decision and not how long you grind in training. Thats one thing that would help the game. Tekken is an extremely complex game without movement being complex. You still have to understand incredibly scary oki situations depending on how you are knocked down. You still have various confirms depending how and when you hit someone. You have all the features of the tag system. The move list is still huge and varied. I feel like nothing in the game would be lost by removing the downback portion of BDCing. You can just insert the vulnerable frames in the BD since they already design the game with that in mind.
When top players literally have to go into training mode and spend 4 hours figuring how to step each move for the characters and thats not even memorizing. Thats just writing 1 characters move properties down. Thats slightly silly too.
Tekken is the “old game bs” game. Thats what people in my community call it. These are not 09’ers saying this. There are things that are difficult in Tekken simply because “thats Tekken”. I think the sad part is the game is not defined by the things that make it fun but instead by its inconvenient mechanics. I think thats the problem Darry was trying to reference.
I enjoy Tekken. I just wish I was spending my first 3 weeks learning characters more and not something like backdashing . Tekken is a game with amazing depth. It doesn’t need artificial input depth just for the sake of complexity.
I still think the only real issue is lack of consolidated knowledge out there, it’s getting better with the level up your game vids and whatnot, but at times is still feels like there are chunks which it’s just assumed everyone knows.
There’s a lot of info out there about universal mechanics and the top 10 moves and combos tend to be good, but it seems like a lot of the time it’s just assumed you already know what your character wants to be doing, what distances they want to maintain ect.
It seems like information just blanks out after “here is how you sidestep ect” then comes back at “now you are wavedashing and launching into PAIN” without covering the middle ground where you learn how to get into that situation and even if you should even be attempting to get into that situation with that character.
I feel a lot of new players may be essentially trying to do something akin to trying to play keepaway with a grappler or rushdown with a zoner in a 2D fighter without even knowing because of this, hell I might be for all I know.
But there’s nothing wrong with the game itself being more complicated, not every game needs to let you pick it up and immediately be semi-competant, some of us enjoy the progression from getting smacked down repeatedly to being the one laying on the pain.
You, again, repeat my complaints but that’s NOT what the article said! Removing fluff will NOT dumb down the game, but he clearly stated he wants to dumb it down. Also the comparisons to SF4 and UMVC3 are not fitting at all.
What you and I are doing here, THAT’S the real discussion about Tekken’s problems, not that vague, unclear article.
:eek: So there are some things I don’t agree with you on and some great points you make as well.
Regarding movement, I think comparing mvoement between the two games is not quite fair even though I really do see where you’re coming from. I play Soulcalibur as well and I am a forever Nightmare player. When I first picked up Tekken to play it 4rillz, I was like, “…and where’s my super sick Nightmare backdash (that went like fifty feet)? Why do I feel so heavy and inundated?” Movement between the two is just different. NOW, the real problem which you’re getting at here is that one doesn’t have to feel so burdensome AND I AGREE, but at the same time, as a mechanic, they’re very very different animals. One of the reasons movement in Tekken is so hard is because the technique is so strong. Movement in Tekken solves a LOT of problems for you that no moves or other game mechanics can do. In Soulcalibur, movement is much easier and much more fluid because you can actually get punished for moving, LOL. I remember the first time I got CH for stepping the wrong way in SC, I was like, “…wait, what?” Movement is easier because it’s much more risky. I could also go on about the infinite range and tracking that game has, but it will seem like I’m just bitter and disinterested (and I’m not, I <3 SC), but comparing the two is difficult to do because they’re not exactly similar.
Let’s get to the meat of that issue, though. I agree that movement is a grindy process. What can we do to resolve that? Not quite sure. Movement is such a strong tool that I don’t know if it should necessarily be easier. Maybe more moves that actually move characters around? I am definitely wary of adding CH vulnerability to movement because that could the slipperiest slope for this game that could lead to all sorts of bullshit that I don’t even, in all honesty, want to attempt to think of right now. I definitely am unsure of “adding vulernability to backdashes” since you can already get hit when you’re backdashing unless you’re holding back, unless you’re thinking of removing that feature, in which case backdashing would almost never be a good idea unless you’re constantly at the very edge of your opponent’s attack range–blocking would almost always be a better idea in that case unless I’m looking at this from the wrong angle. Maybe making movement less evasive? This might lead to slower play, though, and maybe a homogenization of the neutral game, which is already dangerously slow right now, even after recovering from T6. I’m sure there’s a few gears churning away at this in the Namco machine somewhere and they’ve got a solution (or a different idea, at least) regarding this.
As far as movesets and preparing for even one character, I agree that movelists are mostly too long. This…I don’t know what to say. I mean, some characters can actually use a hefty amount of their moves (Julia, Asuka) even though much of the moveset consists of followups from certain attacks or stances. Some characters (Leo, Kuma) don’t really use everything just because of the optimal nature of their moves or playstyle. I think the long movelist is mostly to keep a character’s poking game strong (less predictable). I still think the game is primarily a footsie game even though people complain about combo length and damage and I think if maybe a smarter approach is developed to tackle opposing characters, this won’t seem like such an issue. I’m not going to say, “it’s the player’s fault,” but you clearly don’t need to have a contingency plan for every possible thread of every string your enemy has; there is some very tiny room for learning as a match is played and WHILE I DON’T THINK IT’S A GOOD LOOK, you can still devote most of your time to the moves, strings and tactics you can expect because they’re expectable. Characters have “top 10 moves” threads because when we pare these lists down, most of these moves are unsafe, reactable and sometimes not even worth the input–some moves just stand out above the rest because of their safety, their speed, or their reward: you can always expect these moves to be core. Now, what could we do to resolve this? I don’t know, I do think that it’s silly to spend so much time just learning how to step just one character, but I’m not sure how to resolve this. You could make moves track less and be a little more homogenous, but then predictability enters the mix and makes blocking super strong as well as buffing an already strong movement engine. Chances are that you tackle this issue without reconciling this with the idea of adjusting movement.
While I don’t think the game is DEFINED by the things that make it hard or cumbersome, I do think that the franchise has an extremely negative stigma that it has to overcome itself; the players don’t seem like enough to convince everyone. I think if there is a T7, it will have to do some soul searching and while I don’t agree with the premise of the article that suggests a dumbing down, I do think some reworks are in order and I am almost positive the movers and shakers who handle these things know as much. Unfortunately, we may not get to experience this until the next generation of consoles, but I am content with where we are now in a dream match format with nerfed T6 mechanics. To me, this seems like a “this is where we’re at, let’s get this party out of the way before we go flipmode” kind of game, but that could be me just being too optimistic.
several things.
first of all, the game is three weeks old on n.a. console. three. weeks. not even a month old yet and you guys are complaining that you don’t know everything about the game yet…IN THREE WEEKS. :looney: some people spend years playing a game and still don’t know that game top-to-bottom…and there’s complaints about a game that’s only been out for THREE WEEKS. just think about that for a moment.
secondly, you guys ask for a narrowed down movelist. then you’re in luck because here’s the thing…the movelist is already narrowed down. you’re not suppose to try to use a characters entire 100-move toolset per match. you actually couldn’t even if you wanted to and still play as effectively as you’d like. its like what was previously stated, the variety is there for when it’s needed…but focus on a character’s main tools and everything else will fall into place as you gain experience from playing, BOTH AS A USER AND FROM YOUR OPPONENT. and yes, you should expect to have played the game for more than THREE WEEKS before you have adequate experience. even umvc3, the easiest current fg on the market, is still fleshing out almost a year from its release, and almost 2 years from its prequel’s release. remember when it took 2+ months for vergil to start seeing community wide usage even though it was VERY clear from the beginning what that character was capable of? yeah, its the same thing. give it more than THREE WEEKS people. it’ll happen.
thirdly, you guys ask for a narrowed down roster. ttt2 is not part of the tekken canon…its a dream-match game. therefore, it has EVERY SINGLE character that’s ever been in tekken except for gon, king I, and about 2 others that i can’t recall right now. so any tekken game that’s actually canon will NOT have ttt2’s ~59 character roster. you guys want a tekken with less characters? well you had it with T6, which was only 40 characters. so apparently, you guys didn’t play the tekken installment that would’ve given you the smaller roster you’re now asking for. where were you? not to mention ttt2 is a team game (primarily). a team game delivers a more robust experience with a large roster, otherwise you’ll get something like mvc1. just think about that for a moment as well.
lastly magus, aren’t you using dvj as your main? you’ve already started off with what’s considered a class of tekken character that’s universally accepted as high-execution. its been stated many times at this point that its better to start off with the easier-to-use characters. and all the ten-strings are easy to become accustomed to. they have very blatant parts of them that are counterable/parryable/steppable/blockable/etc. if they still pose a challenge to you, that’s fine because you’ve only been playing the game for THREE WEEKS. you’re green, like everyone else who’s only been playing any game for THREE WEEKS.
That would be the last thing I hope Namco would ever do with this series. Making movement weaker would make the game easier, sure… but it would also take all the fun out of the game at the same time. Who wants to play a fighting game where you just sit there trading attacks back and forth with your opponent because the game doesn’t encourage movement. The movement needs to get faster, not slower. :V
edit : I guess you didn’t have an 8 frame jab Brennan. :x
8-frame jabs were not standard into the cast, with only a few select characters having them. While DR is a good game, T6 onwards worked on making every character viable on small tidbits like universal 10-frame jabs. It worked.
Nowadays, Ganryu still lacks a quick jab (he’s the only one without a 10-f one) - but he’s still a solid character overall. 8-frame jabs are just stupid - they don’t add anything positively in the long run - instead, only widening up the tiers/character viability.
As someone who is The Worst Tekken Player Ever, I am scared of having to master wangotango new concepts like backdash-cancels and really long combos and all that stuff.
But I’m gonna do it anyway, because I want to learn and become proficient at the game.
The game has played the same for YEARS. Three weeks of DJ in Tag, he’s the exact same in 6. It is 6 + tag thats all it is. You need to know all the moves that can be thrown at you or you will be gimicked out, this is basic competitive knowledge. The game is not Canon?! That is your argument for why there is a million characters? Ugh, I have no issue with TTT2 existing in it’s current form why are you throwing questions at me like I have an issue with TTT2? This is a theoretical discussion on the next installment being catered to wider audience by making the game more accessible, the key points being making the roster and the moveset smaller.
People can whine all they want, but cutting of half of the roster will not solve anything. Just take a loot at Soulcalibur V, lol - most of people didn’t liked the way the roster was handled - especially with the movelists being trimmed down (especially regarding Ivy).
If a character is exactly the way it is at T6, it’s way more easier to grasp things up, right? Especially since we had T6 for YEARS - so there’s no excuse for shitting on the game being “difficult” and “hard” and whatever.
All this talking and the biggest problem is that Tekken just isn’t that fun as it use to be.
Mainly because its the same game over and over with little tweaks here and there.
I understand tekken players what to protect there game, and change at such a summit would def included dumbed down features, but it might just need that to start moving along in a better or just different direction.
All the scrubs that drop marvel 3 drop marvel because its TO HARD they don’t understand why there getting hit or want to take the time to black and punish. Those that stick around stick around because its fun even with the scrubbyness. And the same people would stick around if it was super hard… Its all about Fun factor.
There are scrubs that play mvc2 to this day because its fun, not because its easy or hard.
I can only imagine if capcom just released updated sf2 games over and over never really changing to much but adding characters and tweaking balance issues here and there. We have sf10 or something. But alpha, 3rd strike the EX games and Vs games would never exist.
And of course TTT2 is T6+Tag+New Elements - the same way TTT1 was T3, plus new stuff.
Thing is, people who complain about the game doesn’t even know what to whine about: either the game is “unfun”, hard, unforgiving, have a lot of stuff, or all of this together (without logical reasoning). People are just complaining for the hell of it.
TTT2 isn’t gonna change anything (is a dream-match, after all). Save your whining for a real new installment (or TxSF, whatever floats your boats) - TTT2 is just what it is: a dream-match game, a TEAM-based game, where having a big roster and options enriches the game itself.
Heck, Skullgirls bores me to tears - but you don’t see me at their subforums causing an uproar or trashing the game for any reason - even if I don’t have any fun playing said game.
Using “Fun” as an argument to discuss why Tekken isn’t “x” or “y” is silly at best.
I disagree, I hear people whine about marvel all the time, info that is completely wrong. But the underlying fact that everyone can agree on is the game is fun and addicting. The same can’t be said for tekken convo’s I have or talk about. Infact it always turns into this…Much like VF discussions.
The Vs series all plays different, as soon as you touch it if you try and do something you didn’t in the last game from a special move to a combo to call a assist dual supers or tag its probably going to be different. Start from Xvsf to mvc3… and you’ll see just what i mean.
Is TT1 vastly different from T6/TT2? Im not tekken pro, but walls/environment, rage and tag assaults are all that changed visually outside of core and or character tweaks.