Coaching should be encouraged, not stopped.
Get people playing better, more often.
Don’t see how anyone could be against it.
Learn what a scrub is.
The opponent should have planned ahead. Sounds like he’s playing at a pretty high level if his opponent has Justin and FChamp on his side. He likely has the connections to get a coach.
That’s because you’re apparently too dense to understand the definition of cheating. You’ve been told over and over that it’s not cheating unless it’s against the rules but you still don’t get it. Just throw in the towel because you’re not capable of coming out on top in this debate if you can’t even understand a simple definition.
I was about to tell you the same exact thing.
What’s the point of your statement? I’ve also seen plenty of good and bad players go with no coaching.
I don’t assume anything. That scrubA vs scrubB is just one example of a scenario that could happen between two players regardless of their level. What’s important for me is that this has happened before and will continue to happen if coaching is not regulated. Until regulations happens, it will remain unfair. Most of the matches that I’ve watched over the course of 7~8 years where coaching occurred have been like this : coach+player vs player.
And being a realistic person, I know for sure that FG coaching won’t be easy to regulate or have rules limiting it’s abuse. It’s helpless to stop people from shouting. You think I don’t know that?
So stop telling me that my aim is banning coaching. That’s not my aim and has never been.
I keep saying that I don’t care what tournament organizers do to coaching. No one can dictate what they should or shouldn’t do. After all, it’s their money and image that’s on the line. But my words keep getting… what? blown out of proportions.
On the other hand, the community can regulate itself. Take for example Sumo.
There’s this technique that a Sumo wrestler can pull at the beginning of a fight, where instead of charging towards the opponent with a head butt or a tackle, the wrestler can take one step to the side then slap the back of his opponent making them slip/lose balance, thus having a superior position improving wining chances.
While this is a valid, old tactic with an actual name and doesn’t break any rules, it’s hugely regarded as bad sportsmanship and is avoidable by anyone who’s looking to build a name for themselves.
You’d be called out for it if you do it twice in a year or something.
Remember the GGPO lag that people intentional introduced to gameplay by dragging the window hoping that their opponent will drop their combos. That stuff started to disappear when people became more and more aware of it they could call out others on it.
This is the way I want coaching to be treated in FGC.
1- Acknowledge that it’s a cheat way to having an edge, especially on someone who might already be in a disadvantage of not having top players to train/coach/interact with (thanks Kecka).
2- “This time, there’s no Mago to help you” call anyone out when they cheat and bring them down to where they should be until they prove otherwise.
I don’t think I’m dense Evolution169, if anything, we’re all dense. At least I don’t try to bash my way out of arguments. So why don’t you stop repeating yourself and tell us something we don’t know?
Your argument that the masses are saying this and that doesn’t mean anything to me. I’m not convinced it’s not a cheat. I’ve stated my arguments above.
Your viewpoint is idiotic.
Being coached before, during, or after a match happens in every sport/esport there is.
You say it’s cheating, and then try to compare being given advice to intentionally introducing lag to a game.
You are either stupid, or a huge troll.
I don’t care whether or not you’re convinced. It’s a fact that coaching is not cheating when there are no rules banning it. Your opinion on that is irrelevant.
The real problem currently is that you are so adamant in labeling coaching as equivalent to cheating. If coaching is unfair due to it boosting the performance of the coached player, are headphones also an unfair advantage? They are also able to boost the players performance by allowing them to drown out superfluous noise. How about energy drinks? I’ve seen players performance rise after taking a drink. Are those also unfair?
Lastly, we are a sport without any divisions. There are major and minor tournaments but they are mostly open registration (there are a few invitational but those are very few and far between). With open registrations you can expect some pros, minor leaguers, and some amateurs to show up each with different amounts of preparations. The onus, however has long been on the player to be prepped with such standards as bring your own controller/stick, and I see no reason why the same shouldn’t be said of coaches. If a player has one, they should use them as long as the rules will allow. If they don’t, perhaps they should have been less anti-social.
TLDR: BYOC, bring your own coach.
I’m a tournament organizer who’s resume includes a CPT event, and when possible, I allow coaching in my tournaments.
I still think it’s kind of superfluous to argue about whether it’s fair or not. Because regardless of which conclusion you arrive at, the reality of it is that you can’t make coaching disappear. You might be able to reduce it, but in the end people will find a way.
Just like listening to button presses, hitting empty buttons, looking at an opponent’s stick and whatnot are probably not intended ways to be playing fighting games, but it’s something that’s going to happen unless you put the guys in different rooms, which is just not feasible. So you just have to live with it.
EVO’s ban on coaching was for ESPN, because they didn’t want fifteen guys running on stage between every set on the grand stage with cameras rolling. Which admittedly made it look less bush league, particularly after Mr Thuggery challenged Chris G to a money match. That’s a practical solution. Limiting it to one guy with a two minute time limit would also work. I think it’s more important to make sure the tournament proceeds smoothly and the stream doesn’t look like ass.
WOW! someone that can’t read even if his life depended on it.
That’s not me comparing advise to lag?! That’s me expanding on the Sumo example where I shed light on the fact that knowing you’re being tricked could on itself stop whoever is tricking you from tricking you.
Now, are you making a comparison between esports (e.g. street fighter) and **physical ** sports like boxing, gymnastics…etc, where the outcome has already been decided beforehand, even before competition day arrives? between sports where no amount of couching (mainly reminders) on the same day would have a drastic impact (marginal at best) on the performance of the athletes?
I suggest that you read more books instead of writing them. Nice Bruce Lee picture btw.
To the parrots that keep spamming the same two phrases over and over. You know who you are… I’ll pay you cookies for every valid argument that goes in favor of FG coaching. Let’s see, maybe this will stimulate some intelligence.
I’m not shook by anyone. Not by your insults. Not by your opinions. Some people here don’t want to grind. Instead, relying on someone else’s efforts is easier for them. Come at me bro.
And? Your personal references are not objective reasons to take into consideration. Besides, I’ve already stated that EVO and other big tourneys ban coaching.
I understand where you’re coming from. Time constraints may be one reason to ban or limit coaching. Media standards might be another reason. Either way, just more reasons that coaching is not something we need.
What about the Sumo thing??? 変化 legitimate technique that’s looked down upon. All the above ignored my point about it. Hmmm?
“It can be construed as not wanting to properly meet your opponent either because of cowardice or wanting a cheap, quick win for various reasons.” fits FG coaching very well.
Honestly, I believe the solution here is simply to regulate it. Make it so that players can only designate one person as a coach per match and no one else can join them up on stage.
For every big tournament that bans it, there’s one that’s okay with it. For example, SEAM 2016 was one of the biggest tournaments in the tour, especially for Asia, and coaching was allowed on Sony’s stage. Heck, Infiltration was coaching every single Korean player that entered.
Except that’s never been an FGC thing. Our thing for any legitimate technique has been to use and abuse it. Cheap, quick wins are kind of our thing and we even have a derogatory term for people who complain about stuff being “cheap” - we call them "scrubs.
Also, this goes beyond coaching, right down to seemingly more questionable things such as taunting, intimidation and trash talk.
Sumo is a very special case. It’s a highly ritualistic sport that has its roots in samurai culture. And no, that’s not me drawing broad strokes about Japanese honor culture. Originally, the entire point of organized sumo wrestling was that the best wrestlers would get to compete in front of the emperor at his court to show their clan’s understanding and devotion to the art. Thus it was an incredibly important diplomatic tool, and more akin to other rituals like tea ceremonies than purely competitive sports. Since the sport has its roots in both Shinto rituals (hence the whole purifying the ring aspect and praising the ancestors and kami) and feudal Japanese warrior culture (as the original practicioners were from the samurai caste and part of sumo was showing your devotion to the way of the warrior) it isn’t really just a sport. For example, no matter how good you are, you can never become yokozuna without being considered to fulfill certain moral and spiritual conditions, unlike being heavyweight champion in most other combat sports where it’s just a matter of skill. Hence the very feudal Japanese notion of “getting advice is demonstrating lack of belief in your skill”. Do note that it’s not technically illegal, it’s just looked down on, much like a lot of stuff people just don’t do in sumo, like specific types of throws. Sumo is also corrupt as fuck precisely because it’s a really weird ritualized pseudo-sport, but that’s beside the point.
If you want to look down on people who receive coaching, I don’t think anyone will stop you. But there’s a world of difference between that and outright calling it cheating. Most sports actually allowed coaching more as a consequence of completely unrelated rules that made coaching hard to prevent. In hockey, soccer, football and baseball, you have substitutes which forces the coach to be in contact with his team, making it extremely difficult to prevent him from giving them advice. In combat sports, you needed a corner man to make sure the fighter was in the shape to continue, and he needed to talk with the fighter to do his job. I think the FGC falls into this category of being in a situation where it’s incredibly impractical to prevent coaching and even harder to draw the line of what coaching actually constitutes, so it’s better to just allow it under controlled forms instead.
Those "Uh… no"s clicks are more like “Uh… no, I don’t know anything to say. Let me pretend I made a point”. Hilarious!
Look at it like this : the growth rate of a function is described with it’s most dominant factor; one with the largest exponent. If the most important and prestigious (e.g. EVO) tournaments ban it, then what other tournaments do about it fades in comparison.
“Evo knows their role and they know whatever rules they make, it will be picked up by other events also” - F.Champ.
Having Infiltration coaching all those amateurs is straight up shameless if you ask me. I would imagine they couldn’t be so rude to ask him to stay quite. I’d be so annoyed at myself to let someone bug me the whole set and then take credit for my achievement just because they wanted to help or some wannabe promoters said so.
Your “solution” won’t take us anywhere. How can you ensure that the coaches do not interact with others via text messaging or some other means? You plan on monitoring the coaches? like they say, people will always find ways around it. And the fact that people still haven’t figured what to do about this issue is proof that there’s no practical solution of restricting the abuse.
It’s cheating and not spamming projectiles. Way way more worse than just cheap.
Looks like you’re calling K.Brad, F.champ, and other FG pros scrubs too.
“Luffy told me what I coached him with at Evo was most effective against Bonchan… It made a big difference because I played the character his opponent was using, so I was able to offer him a window into the mind of a Sagat player going up against a Rose player.” - Ryan Hart about Luffy’s EVO 2014 win against Bonchan in grand finals. He said that the gap isn’t that big between great players, so coaching someone mid-set could certainly influence the outcome. I’m sure Luffy has no objections to this.
“It’s slightly unfair one person is having to constantly deal with the minds of two opponents,” he said. “It becomes a handicap match, especially during a lengthy set. The longer a set goes on, the more input a coach can have, creating more opportunities to disrupt the flow of concentration and performance of the one player who is alone" According to him it’s not really fair.
“No coaching at Evo means everyone has to think for themselves” - K.Brad said one time on a tweet.
“I don’t agree on having a coach… Fighting games are unique. If I lose and someone coached me, I’d go home thinking I should have done what was in my heart. If I win, it takes away from my own accomplishment. I want to be the better player, making my own optimal decisions.” - Filipino Champ.
Coaching is allowed so it’s not cheating no matter which way you look at it. That being said, I think you’re merely asking for coaching to be banned in singles tournaments which would be a TO nightmare if scrubs left and right started complaining after every match (especially at majors). From a perspective of practicality, coaching is here to say.
I don’t even think we can accurately define coaching to begin with. A group of 6 people in the crowd yelling, “Hold Down Back!” Automatic disqualification? Your buddy mentioning, “Fuck up this Wakeup DP scrub.” Forfeit the match for cheating. The term coaching is so broad we would have to narrow it down in some way that would comply with how our community is run without disrupting the flow of the event.
I always liked the Blizzard RTS model where both players are in separate soundproof booths by themselves. No coaching, no interfering with the other player, no outside noise like the crowd distracting anyone.
That would be my dream as a player for fighting games. Probably doesn’t sound great to others though lol.
Anyone can say scrubby things, pro or not. K-Brad has been doing it a lot lately with all his whining about Smug.
FChamp isn’t making an argument against coaching being allowed, he’s making an argument for why he doesn’t want to use a coach.
Their opinions on the matter are valid since they are affected, but that’s just two people, and we don’t even know if they still feel that way.
And if you don’t like the post rating system, you can go find a forum without one.
That sounds fucking awful 
“Anyone can say scrubby things, pro or not” this might apply to you but surely not everyone.
According to your logic, anything that Daigo says should not be taken seriously since he hasn’t been doing very well lately in SFV. Daigo is a scrub. Daigo is a fraud. Daigo should go find a real job… Haaa bro get out of here. What about Ryan Hart? Let me guess… He’s a scrub too!!
Since I mentioned Daigo, I have just realized that I’ve never seen him being coached by anyone. So it makes sense to assume he does not want coaching to be around and available for his opponents.
Since day 1, SFV has been arguably a messy game. Dismissing someone based on their performance in said game when they clearly have a long history of success is foolish.
K.Brad and F.Champ are well known, well established, seasoned players. You can’t take away from what they say no matter what, because unlike you, they have weight in the FGC.
They’re not just two people. First of all, read well. I quoted three and mentioned Luffy who’s a close friend of Ryan. Second, of course there are many others, I just quoted some of them. There’s no way I can search tweets of everyone. Stop being lame and quote some known players yourself (other than the Trinity).
And FYI, I’m not going anywhere. I don’t have any problems with the rating system. Just wanted to put people in their place.
So you’re saying no pro can say something scrubby when they get salty? Get real. I already said K-Brad has been doing that lately with regard to Smug.
That would be a very self-serving assumption to make, wouldn’t it? How about we assume that Daigo is okay with coaching because he coached Bonchan in EVO 2014 and has said he’d like to be a coach like Valle?
You seem to be getting super titled over this. Maybe consider taking a break and coming back when you have a real argument, instead of “these 3 pros right here agree with me.” And “putting people in their place” makes you looks pretty salty, just FYI.
He’s calling KBrad comments “scrubby” not because KBrad isn’t doing well, but rather because they come of as complaints about Smug’s character being cheap - which is the academic definition of scrubby.
Making the arbitrary call that something is “cheap” or “unfair” is the textbook definition of scrubby.