I had a long argument but then I realized something … Are you talking about mid play coaching? Not between matches? While the timer is running down and life bars aren’t fully depleted? That’s what you have a problem with? Good luck getting rid of that. In all the chaos with all the cheering and chanting, some idiot in the back yells “RTSD!” and the player starts playing more offensively is that considered coaching? Because you are effectively saying to get rid of that shit too.
Um no. Guess I have to clarify a couple of things.
Let me start with explaining the opposite. You’re not “engaged” (that’s the term I used above) is when you are not called to play. There are others playing their own sets, all the while you’re waiting for your turn to come. In this period of not being “engaged”, do whatever! I don’t have a problem.
Now you get called, some timer somewhere starts ticking, you plug-in your controller, you shake hands, and the Character Select screen pops up. Now the problems start.
Of course if you shout advise to your guy during match, the opposition will hear it too. That for me is not as bad as having a 1 to 1 talk where the coach can literally pass a detailed report of what happened, what could have been done, and/or what to do in the next match.
I should point out that I haven’t said we should ban coaching, nor did I use a title to imply that (RE: a reply to). I’m just stating that it’s a cheat. What actions to take after acknowledging that? I don’t care really.
By calling coaching cheating your goal is extreamly explicit, dont try to back peddle now.
Also its not a cheat. Cheating is breaking the rules. Coaching isn’t against the rules, thus it’s not cheating. Your whole topic is a failure.
You’ve said that already. I was going to reply to that but I held myself back due… oh! guess I’ll have to do it.
It’s not breaking the rules… maybe… because there are no rules for it to begin with.
Everything starts in a mess, slowly making its way into being more and more organized. We’re not there yet, that’s why we’re having this discussion.
I’ll use an analogy.
Crime is breaking the rules. Spitting isn’t against the rules, thus it’s not crime. Pretty much what you have said.
Spitting on streets, walk lanes, walkways, or whatever is not a crime in many cities. In fact, there are no rules specifying when or how or where you should and shouldn’t spit. Nobody cares about this and think it’s okay until they, themselves, get affected; someone spits in front of their house or just in front of their sight.
Is it classless? yes. Is it disgusting? yes. Is it wrong? yes.
Should spitting be criminalized? I don’t think you can stop something so simple yet so prevalent.
Spitting on public when it’s a necessity/emergency/health issue knowing that it’s morally wrong is not the same as spitting on public and being proud of it. The former case is being knowledgeable and considerate, the latter is being savage.
I never said we should start taking people to jail if they spit on the streets. I also didn’t say we shouldn’t. All I said is that it’s wrong. In the end, I really don’t care. I never thought about it before to be honest.
The only difference in this analogy is that spitting is sometimes unavoidable, while FG coaching during a set does not reach such a point. How can it be unavoidable?
So I hope you’re not finding it odd anymore when I say coaching is cheating (read above) and when I state my disinterest in banning/unbanning/allowing coaching.
Clearly I’m not back peddling as you have called it. If anything I’m backing it up.
And please stop trying to bash my inelegance if you’ve got nothing constructive to spout.
Repeat after me, insult tactics have never been and will never ever be arguments…
You can call coaching morally wrong if you’d like, but it’s still not cheating. And tournaments do have rules, so I don’t know what you mean by “there are no rules to begin with.”
Also, I’ve been places where spitting in public isn’t allowed and is punishable via citation.
This so so dumb. Spitting is against the law in a lot of places, you can be fined because it’s against the rules. Even still points completely irrelevant because there is nothing morally objectionable about coaching. It’s not a moral issue, it’s an integrity of th game issue and you haven’t successfully made that argument, in fact you’ve done the opposite, coaching makes the event better, it raises the quality of the match and the quality of the competition.
Besides you backed up my point, in places where spitting isn’t illegal you can’t be fined because it’s not against the rules, thus no law was broken. There’s no s against coaching thus it’s not cheating. There’s no maybe about it, this is a black and white issue. It’s only cheating if it’s against the rules. Is coaching against the rules? No? Then it’s not cheating.
What you need to do is a form a better argument as to how coaching is detrimental to the game. You’ve failed to do this.
And still by calling it cheating your intentions are clear, words matter, there’s no one who thinks cheating at a game is ok, thus the outcome of labeling something cheating is extreamly obvious, so yes you are back peddaling. It’s very obvious you don’t think it should be allowed.
I don’t know of any specific coaching rules when it’s allowed. Perhaps you can tell us more about it?
You think I don’t know that?
If there exists one city where spitting is not a crime, then the same implications apply, the same scenarios occur, and the same questions still stand. Should you spit there?
And I know for a fact that there are way more places where spitting is not criminalized than places where it’s punishable by law. So it takes absolutely nothing from my analogy.
You’ve failed to realize that I’m not making a direct connection between the capability of spitting and coaching, but rather a correlation between the wrongness of the two.
Spitting is overlooked, coaching is unregulated. See a pattern?
I’m glad you made that parallel. Let me finish your thought for you.
“in places where spitting isn’t illegal you can’t be fined because it’s not against the rules, thus no law was broken, but it’s definitely not right. There’s no rules against coaching, thus it’s not cheating, but just like spitting, it’s not right either.”
Yes it’s against the rules. EVO 2016 banned coaching after pools.
Redbull Kumite bans coaching. EVO 2017 as well.
I don’t think it banned for no reason.
Reread my first, second, fourth, and my sixth post. Pretty much anything I wrote shows an attempt to construct arguments and an effort to stay away from insults (unlike someone). I even included real examples (forgot to mention J.Wong vs Tokido were Wong had lost the upper hand of 0-2 match point after Mago’s interference. Mago ran on stage, whispered something, and boom… Tokido vs Infiltration in grand finals. https://goo.gl/6qwdOP notice how the commentators at first mock and doubt Mago for trying to help).
Maybe if I quote well known articles 1 2 3 that more or less agree with my views then you’d consider listening?!
Then there’s the argument that the only reason you’re making it is because you have top level players as your coach and not due to your own merit. It becomes “who you know” rather than “what you know”.
Feel free to dodge my arguments all you want but know that you haven’t made one argument to assist your points. You’re basically saying “no, it’s not.” type of phrases every time I point out something.
You call this an argument? IT’ IS AN OPINION.
It’s your opinion that spitting isn’t right, just like coaching isn’t right. What harm does spitting actually do besides make people wrinkle their noses? Spitting is harmless. Your analogy is fucking stupid.
So if Evo bans coaching then it’s against therules there in which case coaching would be cheating and isn’t allowed. So why is this a conversation?
You can quote all the articles you want to, I really don’t care, I don’t have the power to change this shit, if it’s that important to you go whine to event organizers, they make the rules.
My opinion is that being able to exacute is just as important and knowledge, if whispering something in someone’s ear was all it took for them to take the crown the fighting games would be garbage, but you it’s not, you actually have to perform as well. It’s a combination who and what you know, and the ability to execute what you know. Fighting games have always been a big part of who you know because the quality of your competition is important. Just having a bunch of knowledge isn’t going to get you to the winners circle. You didn’t get there based on what and who you know but by your ability to perform.
Ivee made lots of arguments you just don’t seem to actually get what my position is.
Oh and by the way this whole fucking thread is opinions dude.
So you are saying it’s okay to have a research team of 10 people (20, 100, or even 1 guy it’s all the same) sitting behind you doing all kinds of analysis for you while you play and it will have little to no effect on your performance?
It’s not against the rules everywhere. And if it is against the rules, then coaching would be cheating. If it’s not against the rules, then it would not be cheating.
It would be interesting to hear how the top players at EVO feel about the no coaching rule, and also how they feel about the inconsistencies in the legality of coaching from tourney to tourney.
Sure it will, but you still have to be able to execute, that’s well over half the game. You have to be able to perform. Knowing is one thing, pulling it off is something else, not to mention your opponent can change tactics, or even character depending on the rule set. He could also have people coaching him, it’s not like only one player in the match gets to have some advice tossed his way if that’s the way things are going to be playing out. I know a lot about fighting games and how to play well, doesn’t mean I do (cuz I don’t).
How should I put it, coaching sucks balls, if someone is getting gimmicked out he either needs to figure that shit out himself or look that shit up between loosers bracket matches.
That said it’d be a complete pain in the arse to enforce any ban and with noisey crowds yelling shit (the way it should be) it would be easy to just shout coaching from the crowd so it might as well stay because sod having more things that can go wrong in a tournament.
This whole topic has become pointless.
http://i.imgur.com/bqh8rvG.png
I heard someone laugh out loud once (not even Nelson Muntz, HAHA, just ‘HAH’) from the other side of the room to the teach asking if we tried to make a graph for our test question when he went over the answers to the test. Making graphs correctly was half the class curriculum!
who’s laughing now!
well maybe everybody because how does high level play go under, well beyond 0% into the negatives. casual play much closer inset to 100% on the scale with a defined 0% there.
There you go bro. By saying it will, you are confirming (conforming to) my idea that coaching will have an impact on both players. It’s very possible for that impact to be unobvious, small, and so minuscule to various other factors, but still mean the difference between a loss or a win in high level play.
If you want FG competitions to be “camp vs camp” (not just the traditional “team vs team”, but also where one individual steps forward to represent his “camp”)? okay then… no problems.
Maybe you’re right. Should’ve added 0%'s to the right and left of bottom scale because my scrambling was not obvious. Guess you should dumb things down to everyone always (i.e. being explicit at all times) huh?! Do you do this in your everyday life communication though?
I never said it wouldn’t have an effect, it’s obvious it does, the question is if the effect is a negative or not. I don’t think it is and you have failed to convince me otherwise.
My contention was with calling it cheating when most of the time it’s not because it’s not against the rules most of the time and then you trying to say you don’t care if it’s banned or not while insisting on calling it cheating making your position very clear.
I’m not trying to convince you of anything. You can cheat like this and win all that there is for all I care. But It’s hard to understand how can one not think of this outside intervention, that would affect a 1vs1 situation, as a cheat.
Scrub A has J.Wong and F.Champ at his side while scrub B has nobody. Sounds fair.
Why assume scrub B has no one? I’ve seen coaching on both sides. Why are we even assuming these people are scrubs? Plenty of very good players have had coaching.
It’s really hard to have an even handed conversation about this when you keep coming from such a negative direction. Makes me feel trying to converse with you about this is a waste of my time because your mind is already made up. Waste of time at that point.
From a logistical standpoint, banning coaching is just not feasible. How are you going to prevent some dude in pools from telling another dude that his opponent likes to press buttons on wake-up? The issue at this point is more or less having four or five guys rush the stage at grand finals and delaying the game because they all have to whisper strategies to the player rather than any question of whether it’s fair or promotes higher level of play or whatever.
Previously, I felt like coaching might give an edge to established players with ready access to top level tournament players to coach them, but then I realized that while that’s probably true, it doesn’t really matter in the end. Smug trains with Valle. EG had some of the top names in America training with each other constantly. The Trinity are only a thing because they pool their resources. Top level guys get advantages others don’t because they have sponsors, they know other top level guys and therefore get better training partners, they get to compete against a wider variety of players more often, and they get to have fighting games as their day jobs in some cases. Hell, just where you live can give you a huge advantage. Good luck playing Tekken 7 competitively against someone who’s had well over a year’s practice on the arcade version before you even touched it.
The guy who has Justin Wong and F Champ in his corner will probably have a significant advantage over the dude without anyone whether they coach him or not, because he gets to practice with top players and benefit from their insight. Their coaching didn’t just start at the tournament. The question I think is far more important than if it gives an unfair advantage to a player who already has an unfair advantage is how to make tournaments proceed in a timely and orderly manner. Because unless you’re on the grand stage at EVO, even with coaching banned you’re probably going to end up having “coaches” sitting on the front row and yelling out advice to their guy. The coaches will be telling their guy strategies against other players before the match even begins (there’s the Floe SC2 EVO story, for example) and scouting out possible rivals. Coaching is going to be a thing and there’s not much you can do, the most important thing is to make sure it disrupts tournaments as little as possible.
I see it kind of like a trainer giving a fighter advice between rounds of a boxing match. Sure he can give instructions, but the fighter still has to carry them out and there’s no guarantee that the opponent won’t be able to download and break through whatever the new strategy is.
With that said, if it’s against the rules it’s against the rules. But maybe if players were each allowed to choose a “coach” to be in their corner in the grand finals or something, it might add a little more oomph to the match.