Rank the SSF2T characters

Classic Fighting Games Other Games
41

dude, you are on teh crack. :slight_smile: Or playing a different ST. Reversal SPD beats meaties. Works on meaty Bison slide and everything. I’m pretty sure it’s instant.

**

I’m not worried much about them reversing my grab. You can’t hit negative Stormhammers, just avoid. and Trip?? TRIP? >boogle<

It’s the tick itself that gets reversed. super-deep J.jab or crossup is my best bet. I know i don’t HAVE to attack, but I spent all that time getting in, I can’t just let them get up and knock me back out again.

42

Okay, ignore me for awhile, it’s 7am and I have not slept.

Someone tell me if I’m just imagining the 3-frame SPD. I could have sworn someone told me it had startup. I don’t play Gief so…

Sleeeep… zzz…

43

Im pretty sure n.gief can beat meaties with his spd. but lets say you cant just for arguments sake. you still have green fist which is an important move its just hella hard to use properly. but someone threw a fireball = free spd thats beef. Add onto that n.gief having the FAB aka the i win this round for free move. which against shotos and other chareacters you have to lariat alot against its pimp cause your gonna get it like every single round and you will like never whiff it. On the accidental headbutt thing just always end the spd in db or ub postions and it will never happen. only thing o.gief has is the jump straight up headbutt thats auto dizzy. i dont think its true auto dizzy for n.gief.

I would also drop n.rog down to upper tier and move n.chun uo from second to upper. only reason i move rog down is because o.sags and n.dhali dont really have problem fights rog does.

44

O. gief does have an instantaneous SPD and N. Gief does have the 3-frame delay. If you have a console version or an emulator you can test this yourself. Do an SPD with O. Gief and then pause the game. If you’ve completed the input your opponent is already grabbed. Do this with N. Gief and if you’re quick enough you’ll get a “grabbing” animation and can pause it fast enough to see it.
The “Grabbing” has gief’s arms up in the air at the beginning. If you can’t pause for whatever reason, you should see N. Gief have a flicker above his head at the beginning of his SPD that O. Gief doesn’t have.

Just to add something further if you pause the game while N. Gief is in his “Grabbing” animation, you can hold up on the 2player controls and the opponents character will jump out of the SPD.

On wakeups, doing a true reversal gives you one frame of invincibility. A move with instantaneous startup or its own invincibility is needed to be used successfully as a wake up.
N gief. 3 frame SPD. 3-1=2 frames of vulnerability. Not good.

I don’t know if Gief’s 360+ K is instantaneous. Anyone know? I think I once reversaled a 360+K versus a meaty raging demon in A3.(Lol, retarded. If I hadn’t got a clean reversal I would have lost the match)

45

I really would like to believe you guys. You seem so sure.

But I can’t do the pause thing you mentioned. He always grabs them. His arms might not be wrapped around them, but they’re grabbed. They “teleport” right up to him.

But never mind that (I could just be screwing up the timing).

If that WAS the case, then how come I can SPD meaties? Unless the startup is invincible, it’s instant. There’s no other explanation right?

Hell, I thought all throws in this game were instant. Are there any more that you think have startup?

46

I guess I am wrong…

I don’t get it guys… if Ryu is not tier than why does Daigo play him…I guess you could say it’s bcuz Daigo is the best. You think he would of had trouble against two time champ Jason Cole. Because I was thinking that maybe since Sim is tier he should have beaten Daigo. What is up with J. Wong? Correct me if I am wrong but didn’t he play Chun at Evo??? And you guys think she isn’t on the list… As for Gief, I dunno, you guys can debate that. Apparently you fellas know more about old Gief than I do:)

47

Um, just for the hell of it I went and tested Hawk’s, Honda’s, and Gief’s special throws against meaty bison slide.

They all beat it with reversal. 360+k too.

So I really don’t know what you guys are talking about.

48

I don’t think anti-fireball is much of an issue with Zangief, since either one can just lariat and that takes away the FB’s effectiveness. Most shotos would not bother with attempting FBs as keepaway.

No one’s gonna get hit with FAB though. That’s why they gave him the Aerial Russian Slam later on. Gief gets super, you just jump straight up jump kick and you won’t worry too much.

Faster walk speed which is of course vital to a grappler. The quicker SPD is under debate, but I think these things make a lot more difference than the fools gold that New Gief has.

You’re crazy LOL.

O.Sagat has problem fights. Dhalsim is almost a direct counter character, and he has hard times with either Honda, Vega and Old Sim. Rog doesn’t like to fight Vega or Sim either, but he can deal with Honda well, especially once he gets super. Super is main reason why Rog is top tier. He always gets super, and once he gets it the oponent doesn’t get to do anything anymore.

New Dhalsim is probably the #1 character (if you don’t count Akuma) since his only problem fight is a character that dies to most others anyway.

49

Sorry to be the rock in your shoe again…

**

Yeah, green hand isn’t an all-out FB killer. But it’s there. Something O.Gief doesn’t have at least.

How do you fight Gief with shotos without FBs? I know you can’t just let him smack you with the lariat, or get green-handed into SPD (humiliating), but how are you going to bait lariats without throwing any FBs? If anything just something to keep him busy when he’s out of range. The whole deal is to keep him out right? And FBs help.

**

How much closer are you going to get after SPD/sweep with slightly faster walk speed, instead of green hand? Your not. Not even close.

Green hand is also an awesome anti-air. Not because of priority, but it travels, and knocksdown so well. Say you block a DP or something, or they leave themselves vulnerable when they’re airborne somehow. Greenhand them out of the air, and you’re probably close enough for crossup afterward. Better than just sweeping them.

You could SPD i suppose, but in any case this is still something that O.Gief doesn’t have. And if they’re the type to try jumping out of ticks, greenhand instead knocks 'em down and leaves you close. It’s not BEST MOVE EVAHR!! But it’s something that O.Gief does not have.

With the exception of this faster SPD stuff (which I can’t really see how it matters much really if the “slower” one is still instant for me) Your only case for old Gief is faster walk speed, and lack of moves. Which isn’t enough IMO because the moves do serve a purpose if used well (never land a super? c’mon now), it’s the players fault if these moves hinder him, and green hand is a lot better than the walk speed sometimes.

I just don’t see it. :confused:

50

BY problem fights i mean fights charatcers lose. O.sags doesnt lose to honda. hell bison does better agtainst him than honda does. Sagats only true bad fights are n.dhali and if rog gets super. He either beats or goes even with everyone else. rog has problems with guile and bison that i know of for sure n.dhali also isnt realy easy but hey n.dhali beats everyone except for cammy maybe i still need to see this backed up by someone.

51

I wish I could argue more with Drag, except the fact is I don’t really know Zangief all that well :lol: All the arguments I’ve heard in favor of Old Gief say “green hand is not tht important” but what Drag is saying makes me think that’s probably not true. So let’s just call that a question mark for now…

I didn’t say O.Sagat lost to Honda, I said Honda gives him trouble. He can’t keep Honda away with fireballs effectively since high tigers can be crouched under and low tigers get torpedoed over or failing that, jump up fierced over. And unlike Bison, Honda has reliable anti-air to Sagat. Plus ochio can come in handy vs. sloppy s.short xx tiger chains.

Rog does badly on Bison? I didn’t know this.

52

Between c.fp and walf forward standing jab bison has plenty of relibale anti airs for sagat. Bison on Rog is a little werid but i think bison had the advantage from personal experience and talking with old schoolers. he cant rush punch all stupid cause scissor kicks or s.rh keeps him from rushing forward just keep him away and pump your pokes its alot easier for bison to keep him out then it is for rog to get in and stay in. tick throws are nice if people cant counter grab. bisons range and good specials are pimp plus you can cross up rog charge with headstomps and devil reverses. and then he doesnt have a great anti air to stop you.

53

Well, to be fair, I don’t know jack shit about O.Gief. I might have picked him twice? I’ve picked N.Gief about 9000bazillion times.

Maybe if someone could give me an in-game example where I can see that SPD is much better somehow. But I just don’t see you actually gaining anything by picking O.Gief.

On a related note: If you have seen the Taikou TZW vids floating around you can see the 2 giefs in action. I think there’s 2 O.Giefs (Liz, and some dude), and 1 New Gief (Pony I think?). Pony does rack up an impressive win streak late in the vids, but also gets smacked a bit for guessing wrong with the green hands early on. Either way, I didn’t see anything that makes me think that O.Gief is better than N. Both seemed to SPD no sweat.

54

I figured I would try to fond some differences between old and new gief. Maybe old is better, I dunno.

One thing I’ve found is that N.Gief has a longer s.forward. Let me put it this way…

Old and New have the same range on their SPDs. New s.forward is slightly longer than his SPD range. Old s.forward is slightly less. (his farthest reaching move is SPD)

Not much, but whatever. They also hit differently. New s.forward hit spark is below the boot unless max range. Old is above. What difference this makes? I don’t know.

Maybe that 3 frame startup stuff is the stutter you get before SPD? Like, it’s active for 3 frames but can grab on the first? I still don’t know what the stutter is all about.

The walkspeed is a lot better than I had thought. Greenhand doesn’t get you that much closer after a SPD… It DOES, but not nearly as much as I thought. Only slightly (but enough :))

Another thing about greenhand. If you hit with the end of it (meaty) you are a lot safer afterwards. I dunno about totally safe (probably not) but if you SPD they can’t always jump out of it if you do it right I don’t think. I’m going to start trying to tick with it and see what happens (after his holds, after d.fiercing shoto hurricanes, etc).

55

Best in the game I think is Vega, great range, great priority, (best normals in the game imo) fastest foot speed, fastest jump, multiple and great anti-airs, good priority on his jump moves, great sweep, full screen guessing game with the wall jump, and a super that doesn’t get used up unless it friggin hits. I think he is the only character that doesn’t lose horribly to anyone, Ken gives him some problems but that’s about it.

After that, Balrog, O. Sagat, Bison, Ryu, Ken (old and new) and Dhalism are top tier.

Mid tier you got Chun, Fei Long, Honda, Dee Jay, and Guile.

Bottom tier I think is Cammy, Gief, Hawk, and Blanka

PEACE

56

Cammy’s jump strong will beat just about all of Sim’s anti airs, including his slides. This lets her jump in almost with impunity (minus jump back fierce) She has has a hella ambiguous crossup (editor’s note: when you’re not going for it all the time) that if it’s connected, leads to 4 hit insta-dizzy combo, or hooligan if blocked.

Sim can’t really sit back and chuck fireballs, as Cammy can pretty much jump straight up and down and hit strong on the way down to beat out limbs. Plus once you’ve got him in a groove of throwing fireballs, there’s a good chance you’ll be able to connect a jump in on him.

He’s still got jump back fierce which you have to watch out for, and he can jump back and RH drill a hooligan attempt, which he has to do instantly. However, Cammy can mix it up with jab or strong hooligans, which will grab the RH drill. He also can’t RH drill out of it if he’s in the corner.

She has all of the tools to effectively shut down Dhalsim. Unfortunately, she gets steamrolled by most of the rest of the top tier. She also does very well vs. Vega and the shotos, Ken moreso than Ryu.

There’s supposedly a page of ST frame data floating around in the ether somewhere, but I have yet to see it.

Re: Bison vs. Rog: Bison can standing forward or roundhouse all of Balrog’s rushes from half screen or better away. Balrog’s standing fierce can be ducked by Bison, which leaves him free to scissor kick, or jab torpedo afterward.

Balrog, OTOH, can low strong Bison’s scissor kick attempts, still has the dangerous tick game, and is much more dangerous once he’s able to get close to Bison.

I think this fight is fairly even. It’s pretty much a stalemate if they’re at half screen or greater distance. Bison can’t really scissor kick in safely, and Rog can’t just rush at him all day. Up close, Rog has superior pokes, but if Bison can push him back out to standing forward/rh range, he’s got the advantage now.

hobbles back to the rest home

57

Old Zangief is for people who prefer him, that’s really about it. He’s not stronger than N.Gief. You can charge a super w. N.Gief really quickly, so you usually always get it. The super has about half the range of the regular SPD, so it’s obvisouly harder to land than an SPD. It depends on how good you are at being tricky and unpredictable. A good Zangief just ‘knows’ how and when to jump properly and this is a huge skill because his sprite is large and slow. Jumping up and down against Gief only works of you have an attack that out-ranges the SPD. Ryu and Ken’s RH gets SPD’ed.

Dee Jay is Balrog’s worst fight it seems. Jab fireball - standing roundhouse… this itself Balrog has trouble with. It’s like the Dhalsim fight but easier.

58

How I rank them?

OG Sagat
Balrog
Dhalsim
Ryu
Vega
New Ken
Chun Li
Guile
Bison
Fei Long
Zangief
Blanka
DeeJay
Honda
Cammy
T.Hawk

59

Balrog can do whiff short kick rush into headbutt or super to get around a lot of the problems you guys are mentioning.

Derek Daniels
omni@shoryuken.com

60

Thought Daigo chose Ryu in ST because he had a decent chance of winning against everyone, and because Shoto style play was what he was used to.