Anyone ever figure a way out of the hadoken, sweep pattern that apparently plagued Honda during 94-96 according to the sf2 newsgroup?
Not really. If he throws a fireball and you are not in sumo splash range, you can consider yourself fucked. New Honda’s up+fierce helps, but not much.
Awww crap, after playing Honda in SFA3 I really wanted to give him a try in ST.
I suppose if I went to japan and tried the sweep fireball trap some god-like honda player with the reflexes of a cheetah has prolly figured out a split second timing to get through the trap with a walking forward last second chraged butt drop or something insane like that :lol:
I have a way out with old Honda.
Walk forward and s.rh trade with FB.
Still if youre on opposite sides of the sceen.
You will still have to block a fireball.
Or straight up jump.
It still takes work to get that range.
Here’s a little tip for Honda users out there! 
Use fierce HHS as a dash. Seriously! It’s hard to rev up, but if you can do it, it’s great. Just use it for that little dash forward and stop it right away. Keep your charge too.
Like philth said, s.RH is good move because it’s long and can help stop those FBs.
Whenever I do the s.RH I always start revving up the fierce HHS (and charge down-back). If my far RH connects, I immediately bust out my HHS dash and get that much closer to my opponent after the knockdown. It might not sound like much, but as every honda player will tell you, every little bit counts! Then you’re close enough for jump-in then ochio tick, butt-smash, etc.
There are other situations too… Like after anti-air s.HP. Air-to-air attack. After blocking a far FB sometimes. After connected butt smash midscreen. Even after midscreen ochio throw it can help sometimes… do 1-hit or something, then ochio again! Just play around with it, and see what you can come up with.
That, negative ochios, and being psychic to counter FBs are my favorite tricks with honda.
Crossup RH, s.MP, ochio is a stupid but somehow neat dizzy combo as well. I’ll stop rambling now.
Thanks for the info, but which Honda are we talking about? New Honda or Old Honda? I thought his standing kicks were different, compared to his old version.
And did Honda ever have any combos? I heard somewhere he has crouching SP >> HHS
Hmm maybe I should just make up a Honda thread but I don’t know if one already exists, or if anyone would respond to it.
You can supposedly link two C.Strongs together, but I think it’s something like a one-frame link. I am not sure.
New honda… I never use old. The Ochio throw thing is just way too good to give up IMO. You don’t get fierce HHS dash either.
I dunno about crouching strong. I never use it in combos, but it is an awesome poke for snuffing attacks.
I usually just do s.MP, then link another attack. Or d.LK into headbutt (boo) I think you can do crossup RH, s.LP, s.MP, s/d.HP but I never go for it. I usually go for crossup RH, s.MP, s.RH (2-hit knee) because i like that knee ^_^. Good dizzy too.
I know j.RH, super gets full hits against Fei long… if that means anything. If you’re a maniac you could do j.RH, s.MP, Super instead.
screw combos though, only if they’re dizzy. It’s all about meaty d.LP, negative Ochio!
Yeah the st. JP, SP, FP is a surprisingly easy link, even if you miss it you still get a decent poke string which isnt bad.
So I suppose the main strength of Honda is utilising the Ochio Throw? Whats the range on it exactly? It just seems pretty useless in A3, how is it in ST? Does it do good damage?
The range is pretty good. About as much as normal throw range, maybe a bit more? I dunno. The big draw is that you can store the throw.
Half-circle back, well… actually you can just go to diagonal back-down, no need for the full motion. Just hold it in the last direction, and if they come in range hit punch and you get ochio.
This makes throwing through poke strings and whatever super-easy. If they’re close, hold back-down and mash on punches. If there’s a hole, Ochio! On a high jump-in block with the back part of the motion, and hit punches when they land. If there’s a hole, Ochio! If it’s a combo, you still block anyway because of back-down… if then a hole, Ochio! This kind of stuff makes it really freaking hard to tick Honda with normal throws. It’s really good for wake-up too. Just do the motion and hold back-down, mash punches when you get up if they’re close enough.
It’s also really good for ticks. Do high jump-in splash, do motion in midair and hold back-down, start mashing punches before you land. No need to time anything (unless you hit kinda deep and you have to wait a split sec), so it makes it real easy. Do a sumo splash that whiffs and land right in front of them, store the motion in the air, mash punches before you land, Ochio! Do RH sumo splash that crosses-up (kinda tricky to block anyways), store the motion before you land, hit punch when they come out of block, Ochio!
It also has great stun for some reason. If you get a hit or two before it, it can dizzy. If not, usually 1-hit afterwards will dizzy. Especially if you got a hit right before the Ochio. So after an Ochio you could go for splash-ochio again. DP-type characters can stop this, but it’s risky because if they mess-up or even trade, they are dizzy. Against characters without DP it’s crazy anyways because the ochio can be so hard to stop. RH Sumo smash after Ochio isn’t that bad either. Even going for HHS after ochio for chip isn’t a bad idea. Decent chip, and if they try to counter and get hit, they might be dizzy.
If you start going for negative Ochios then it can get realy beastly. Release all punches in succession. If they go for DP-type reversal or special to get airborne to stop it and they DO get reversal, you’ll block it. sweet! Counter if possible. Now their only option to hit you is to counter-throw, and we all know how hard that is. It also can help in ticks because if you do the Ochio too early, (while they’re in blockstun) you’ll punch them. This won’t happen if you Negative Ochio so it can help.
In the corner, Ochio is insane. After one Ochio or knockdown, meaty d.jab, negative Ochio. If they get hit by the jab, they will be dizzy after the Ochio. If not, you get to do it again. The only thing they can do is try to reversal/counter throw the jab, then counter throw the ochio. They might reversal special to avoid the Ochio, but hopefully you can counter it. There’s also the option of just blocking when they get up if they’re hellbent on reversing to stop the jab… Make sure to release 3 negative ochios when they get up just for the hell of it anyway. Miscreen, a bear hug sets up meaty d.jab perfectly if you wanna go for it. Or you could meaty d.jab into another bear-hug if you wanna try a ghetto Sim type trap.
Just play around with it… Accidental Ochios are funny.
Honda’s main strength IMO is that he is a brute. Because of his crazy upclose game, his damage, great anti-air, crazy wake-up game, and good chip it’s really hard to get in on him if he doesn’t want you to… And if he gets in on you, you usually take damage in one way or another. However, if Honda has to come to his opponent, and they’re zoning him well, he’s in bad shape. This is why I think non-projectile characters have a hard time with Honda, and why projectile characters who play hardcore keepaway well beat him.
Wow, way too much information. Sorry.
thanks for the help.
old sagat is so broken I thought he was banned in tourneys???
1.old sagat
2.Ryu
3.Sim
4.guile
5.Rog
6.Chun,Vega,bison,ken???
You guys can feel free to argue with this post but From what I have played old sagat is hella tier. Ryu is all around good with no weakness, Sim beats guile but chun beats sim, Rog is good,Vega is hella quick, Bison’s juggle is sick, and Ken damages to hell with his combos. I play guile so I know his throw blockstun shit is cheap, but it isn’t unbeatable.
I think when you really analyze it, most people accept top tier is Old Sagat, Balrog and New Dhalsim, with characters like Vega, Bison, Old Sim and Ryu trailing closely behind.
O.Sagat is extremely good, but Dhalsim beats him and either Honda makes him work. Vega is another match that requires work, but more in the reflexes department than anything.
Ryu does have a weakness; namely, anyone who can chuck fireballs faster than him. He has no real way to pry Balrog off of him other than “get lucky”, and either Dhalsim can maul him pretty bad. Longtime Ryu players manage to find answers to these tough situations, but keep in mind you’re going to have to invest the time in him to accomplish that, and do you really want to be another Ryu player? 
BTW, Old Ryu does better in some matchups, but there’s no clearcut advantage to using him.
Guile is good, don’t get me wrong, but he has several issues, main one being his Sonic Boom is bleh slow. His Flash Kick was severely nerfed to the point where he has no anti-air to anyone who can drop directly atop him like Honda or to someone with a quick jump like Vega. On that note, Vega shuts down most of what Guile can do with a sickeningly simple pattern (low strong, low rh, repeat).
As for his throw bullshit being cheap, I don’t know about that. Dhalsim and Bison have insanely cheaper throw grab setups that some people cannot escape from.
I would also posit that either Honda and DeeJay are more deserving of being on your list than Guile and Ken.
Personal feelings on how the rankings break down…
(Note: if New/Old version isn’t mentioned, then the Old one is too superfluous to rank. Why bother ranking Old Vega when he’s just New Vega with missing moves and maybe an extra bufferable move that doesn’t really matter?)
ST Akuma Tier
Take a wild guess.
Top Tier
Old Sagat, New Balrog, New Dhalsim
(Characters everyone can agree are important, Old Sagat because it’s so much work to get in on him, Balrog because it’s so much work to get him off you, and Sim because he plays either range well)
Upper Tier
Vega, Bison, Old Dhalsim, New/Old Ryu
(Characters that don’t quite make the cut/debatable to be top tier, but are still seen quite often in tournaments. Vega gets results because he’s quick as all hell, but sucks at losing matches. Bison is a pressure machine with a great tick throw game, but sometimes has mobility issues. Old Sim is definitely Not as Good Dot Com, but ease of use means he can play more relaxed. Ryu will always get played, but it should be noted that Old and New have considerably different goals.)
Second Tier
DeeJay, New/Old Honda, New Chun-Li, Old Ken
(Prolly get strung up for this, but oh well. DeeJay comes out to be a better Guile than Guile in this game :-/ and has excellent pokes and a slide. N/O Honda is like N/O Ryu except the matchup differences are a bit more marked - Old Honda has a better shot on shotos while New Honda is better on other fights. Chun-Li’s storable super makes her speed a threat, and Old Ken is overall solid thanks to tweaked FB and DP. BTW, I call this second tier after the MvC2 habit of splitting first tier into ‘top and upper’ )
Mid Tier
New/Old Guile, Old Zangief, Old Balrog, New Sagat, Old Chun-Li, New/Old T.Hawk, New Ken
(Characters that are good but really not all that dominating. No reason NOT to pick these characters, as sometimes they’re very fun, but in some cases since the alternate versions are so much better they DO become superfluous unless you really love said character.)
Bottom Tier
Cammy, New Zangief, Blanka, New/Old Feilong
(These characters DON’T suck, some of them even have very good matchups, such as Cammy vs. Dhalsim. They just have exceeding amounts of problems with other characters that makes them really trying to use come tournament time. Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t - I mean, Jumpsuit Jesse and RekkaKen are good examples of people that make you afraid of Feilong. Just be aware that it’s an uphill battle vs. a lot of the cast.)
Old gief better than new? I can’t begin to think of a reason why… Umm… less moves? I dunno, fill me in. Same goes for Old honda and the shoto stuff.
I think old Rog would be one of those superfluous charcters eh? Where’s old Bison??
I’d drop hawk too… I mean, I like the guy but I wouldn’t be able to put him on the same level with Guile/Ken. But that’s just me.
Old Zangief has faster SPD which is an absolute requirement on some of his hardest matches, plus he does not have the headbutt which means he’s less likely to die if he fucks up the motion.
Old Honda has a variety of standing sweeps. That means he can play the range game to hit/trade with shoto fireballs. Plus a lot of people don’t know about limited range of standing kicks, so you can scare shotos with your very fast stand short sometimes. Of course, once they discover stand short only hits out to Honda’s knee, it’s time for you to sing for your supper.
Regardless, either Honda still loses to shotos. Old Honda just has that option in his playbook, whereas if New Honda is going to do that, he has to use forward+roundhouse which is slow and a move that uses forward motion which means you lose charge.
Old Rog’s dashing straight has to be blocked if you are crouching; New Rog’s dashing straight will whiff. He’s kind of an easy mode Balrog, nice to use as a crutch when you start out, and actually better in matchups where the super doesn’t come into play as much (ask Apoc about Old Balrog vs. Vega). Old Bison, short of auto homing devil’s reverse, has nothing important.
Hawk has nasty priority and unescapable ticks. If you can’t reliably keep him out, you risk being used as a tomahawk repeatedly. No, shotos cannot do this.
ok, give me an example where O.Gief’s SPD works where N.Gief’s doesn’t. Getting hopping headbutt/greenhand accidentally is the players fault isn’t it? I don’t think this should really matter much… IMO green hand alone makes me pick new. If anything to cover distance after sweep/spd.
I know bout Hawk’s mad ticks… But you have to get in. what do you do? Jump? walk up SPD? random DP for knockdown is mad risky. Either way you have to guess, and all ticks can be reversed. Nothing is garaunteed with him. Pokes ain’t bad, but that doesn’t make you win the match. I think your low tier beats him…
…and I kinda figured shoto’s couldn’t tick with 360.
Faster SPD means it’s harder to jump out of basic Gief ticks. It also means you can wake up with SPD whereas New Gief cannot do so reliably. Green hand is a nice move to cover distance quickly if needed, but it’s still generally not that important. And even the best players mess up motions sometimes; it sucks worse to have extra moves to worry about getting when you do it. Exhibit A: Strider.
Yes, nothing is guaranteed. That’s why he’d mid tier and not second or upper. Grapple characters are generally shafted in a place like ST because they risk so much everytime they go for a grab.
What I meant is that shotos can’t reliably keep him out. You have like a year to do swandive on a fireball, and other than DP on jump-in, shotos don’t have much anything else to keep Hawk from invading their space.
Specific example… So I can try it out for myself. I don’t know how you’re jumping out of gief ticks anyways. I can’t. >shrugs< How can wakeup be any different? Reversal is reversal right?
AFAIK it’s instant. Unless there is startup with invincibility that I don’t know about.
About Hawk… Meh. I like him against shotos. I can usually get in on them. Really like him against Guile. But when they get reversal 95% of the time, it really hurts my chances. I just don’t think he makes the cut overall. But whatever…
Wakeup SPD on a meaty move. Old Gief can do it, New Gief cannot. He’ll eat the move.
There’s something like 3 frames of startup on New Gief’s SPD (ask someone who knows about stuff like frame data to know for sure).
Reversal is something you’ll always have to worry about. If you think they’ll do a DP, just don’t try to grab. Block the reversal and either SPD them anyway or trip.