R.i.p st

Classic Fighting Games Super Street Fighter II Turbo
101

Jesus. Sirlin said that the relatively lax input windows and motions were to make the game more accessible to new comers. They don’t make the game any less skill oriented in the end.

What the hell is with this HDR hate all of the sudden? Everyone was so goddamned hyped for this to finally come out and now we have all these detractors because their mains got slightly changed or nerfed? Heaven forbid you guys have to slightly retool your game :looney:

HDR is more or less what ST should have been. Embrace it or all will be lost!

102

There’s a difference in “slightly retool” and completely relearn everything you know. HDR is basically ST but everything changed, not for the better, just changed - so why play it?

It makes no sense telling people that have played ST for many years and putting down countless hours on it to just switch to basically the same game (but ugglier) and “retool” everything they know, when ST is perfectly fine as it is.

103

I don’t think the hate comes from having to “retool your game,” it comes from the fact that some of the changes are pretty baffling. Now don’t get me wrong, I like HDR. A lot of the changes in it I can completely agree with (non-random DP window and Remix Sagat leap to mind immediately). But there are some changes that really don’t help the game at all, and arguably make it worse. I’m sure most of the intelligent folks arguing against it can appreciate the intent behind the changes that were made, and “compressing the tiers” is a fairly noble cause, but when so many of the complaints are coming from the folks whose characters were already among the worst before the changes, there is absolutely cause for some concern.

It goes without saying that a lot of people have played ST for a very long time. Clearly, many of us like the game the way it is, with its dominating tactics and steep learning curve. Now there’s not necessarily a conflict there–those of us who prefer ST can go right on playing it. However, when folks talk about HDR as though it completely replaces ST and makes it obsolete, there’s going to be some backlash. Statements like “HDR is what ST should have been” don’t help the situation. Personally, I’m perfectly content to just let the people who say so be wrong, but some are much more vocal than I am.

And let me say again, I like HDR, I think it’s a darn fine game. It hasn’t had the time to prove itself that ST has, and I hope people continue playing it long enough to find out if it has that kind of longevity, but it is different enough that it’s silly to think ST has become obsolete for it.

104

Completely relearn everything you know? Are you serious? No one has changed to the point that they are a completely different character. It took me like two days to get used to everything including the new widescreen ratio.

I understand 100% that people who have been playing ST for 15 years may have some reservations, but HDR was created to bring ST into the new millennium. To give the best fighter on the planet legs to run for hopefully decades to come. Even some of the more odd changes really don’t change the core way you play your character. Unless you liked to do crossup neckbreaker with Chun all day long :bluu:

I guess the scary thing to me is that if this riff gets big enough the ST playerbase will splinter and disintegrate. I really REALLY don’t want that to happen :sad:

105

hdr been hated since month number 1
the game is boohoo online(mvc2 is gonna be boohoo online is well)

and the gameplay doesn’t feel solid

106

Yeah, but the question is whether or not it was successful. Considering the mixed reaction to the changes in HDR, it’s not clear to me that HDR succeeds in “upgrading” ST, or giving it renewed longevity. ST is a great game, with a good playerbase. It didn’t really need an upgrade to keep right on running. That isn’t to say that a new iteration is unwelcome, but if we’re looking to replace the game that we’ve spent fifteen years with, and that we liked just fine all the while, it’s going to take a little more than just a set of tweaks both for the better and the worse, and a graphical update that gets mixed reactions all on its own. Instead, I view HDR as a companion piece to ST. I’m perfectly happy with HDR, and would be happy to see it right there alongside ST for as long as people play it. I don’t agree with the mentality that it replaces ST, though.

While I think “disintegrate” is probably a bit of an overstatement, I do agree that it has largely separated into ST and HDR camps, and that separation is cause for some concern. I imagine that if the ST community peters out, most of the people playing that will migrate to HDR, if that’s where the competition is. Similarly, if HDR doesn’t maintain its following, I don’t doubt that much of its community will return to ST. For both to die off would take quite a bit, I think.

107

It’s probably some of the best non-GGPO netcode I’ve ever seen. Sure there have been and still are a few online glitches, but they will be fixed in time. I really don’t get the “gameplay doesn’t feel solid” thing though.

Well, it is one of the oldest fighting games around to still have a scene big enough to warrant an EVO showing. Lets say HDR gets thrown out after this year due to the same drama ST’s been getting for the last few years. What happens then? ST/HDR will go down like the Alpha series.

I guess I’m just saying that we need put aside our grievances to rally behind the HDR scene, because it is probably the last shot “ST” has.

108

Maybe not, but the playerbase itself bears a lot of the responsibility for that. Just look at this thread - maybe 3 people have actually tried to articulate WHY they prefer one vs. the other. The rest of it is people spouting meaningless one-liners.

I guess it’s only reasonable to expect that after 15 years your playerbase builds up a lot of inertia and resistance to change. HDR is definitely flawed, but so was ST, and every version before it. People put ST up on a pedestal rather than try to come up with a coherent argument as to why HDR is worse.

109

In the part of my post you quoted, I just want to clarify that I’m not saying that I think HDR completely fails in what it set out to do, only that I’m not convinced it is entirely successful. Time will tell, and hey, maybe fifteen years from now I’ll look back and think “man, HDR was the best thing that ever happened to ST.” Right now, though, I don’t see that. I see it as a damn good fighting game that unfortunately doesn’t stand above ST for me.

I agree that both HDR and ST are flawed, and really, I don’t think there is any objective way of determining one to be “better” than the other. It’s always going to come down to preference. And yeah, a lot of people have been just throwing out one-liners in typical internet style, but there have been a few (myself included) who have tried to express clearly and genuinely why they prefer one over the other (and this goes both ways–there are people who can completely articulate why HDR is the better game for them as well). When I’m talking about the opinion on the game, I should probably clarify that I tend to disregard things like “ST>>>>>>>>HDR” or “HDR is ST for babies.” While the people saying it probably have reason to think it, it doesn’t provide me with any understanding of why, while the people who can explain in detail why they prefer one or the other, I can look at their reasoning and see where they’re coming from.

Now obviously, even those well-articulated opinions are subject to bias, and considering the most knowledgeable people about the game are also the ones who have been playing it the longest, they’re potentially the ones who are also most resistant to change. However, when it comes to specific character info, they’re also the ones whose opinions I’d trust the most, and many of them have shown a preference toward ST, and been fairly level-headed about it.

110

Remaking Super Turbo is like when they remade Star Wars (or rereleased w/ new stuff, w/e) about 10 years ago. Sure, the original Star Wars movies were far from perfect, but they had a certain charm to them. There was really no reason to remake them (aside from to get our money) and ten years later the remakes look as dated as the originals (maybe moreso) and everybody just wants to watch the originals again.

I feel the same way about Super Turbo/HD Remix. It wasn’t be any means the perfect game but it really didn’t need a remake. The only possible outcome of a remake would have been an inferior product. The gameplay is the least of the problems too (although I still prefer Super Turbo’s original gameplay). I’ll take the music and the graphics from the original in a heartbeat.

111

It sounds to me like nostalgia over the old stuff is the issue here. Remix was meant to rebalance the issues that people had in ST. It is a slight 'retooling" and is a balanced game in its own right. Not ideal, but more fair for character balance overall.

Just went to the ST thread… not a lot of action compared to the HDR thread… because HDR is a step forward with new things to explore and talk about. People do eventually get tired of playing the same thing and move forward. We may not like the fact that we have to change, but change is the only certain thing in this world.

112

HDR is replacing ST. When a tournament like EVO recognizes this, it is a sure sign of things to come.

People had to move from World Warrior to Championship to Hyper… etc.

ST is going along the same path. It is a great game, but Capcom decided to readjust, rebalance the game, and proceed forward. Granted all the changes aren’t ideal, but we need to learn to adjust and move on.

113

Yep. Agree completely. Capcom’s release has added new blood to the scene who can still play “Classic” if they feel OG. Also the BnB of characters is still there with only slight tweaks.

114

There was no reason to adjust Star Wars, and let’s admit that the same things will happen in either version, but ST is a lot more fluid and active then a movie with the exact same plot. As far as the designers were concerned, it was an issue of bringing ST to the masses, albeit with rebalancing changes to make the game more player friendly and compressing the tiers to try to achieve the ideal of creating characters that have an equal chance of winning, as opposed to just leaving unbalanced changes (O.Sagat anyone?) intact. It seems to me that most resistance to HDR is for nostalgic reasons, or nerfing one’s favorite character.

HDR is fantastic, but not ideal to some (Fei Long in the house?).

ST is fantastic but not ideal to some. (Old Sagat abuse? Balrog loop anyone?)

To be honest, Street Fighter may never be ideal because not everyone will agree with all changes. But we should look forward instead of backwards

115

If we used your logic we’d all still be playing WW. HDR is an update just like CE, HF, and Super were.

116

I don’t think anyone is arguing against the fact that HDR is a more popular game. That’s not what this is about. We’re talking about in terms of quality, whether HDR is good enough to replace ST for those of us who do still play ST. Let’s be clear, ST’s following is dwindling, and in that sense, HDR is “replacing” it. But what I’m talking about is the mentality that HDR is a clear-cut upgrade, and that it makes the previous version obsolete. Again, I don’t see that as the case.

117

Okay I’m going to do something amazing and actually make a real post for once.

There are several reasons I think ST is better, I’ll try to focus more on things I think are solid, rather than opinion-based things more subject to scrutiny like tiers and balance.

1) Not arcade-perfect, feels like there is input lag

It’s been shown that the Dreamcast version of ST occasionally suffers from 0-1 frames of input lag. Since HDR is a port based on the Dreamcast version, I’m guessing this is the reason it doesn’t feel quite right, especially compared to the Arcade version. I haven’t empirically proven this or anything but that’s what it feels like to me when I play HDR.

Like Ganelon said, everything at the bottom of T-Akiba’s page lists issues in the DC version (even with the most accurate dip switch settings) plus slight differences in speed. NKI has them translated on his page.

2) Old VS New Graphics

People say this doesn’t matter but to me it does affect gameplay. The original hitboxes in ST were never meant for the updated sprites in HDR. I’m sure the artists tried their best to match the new graphics to the original hitboxes, but based on what seems like a rushed job due to corporate pressure I don’t think HDR can match the original in this department. And classic sprites? Are you kidding me? Those things are preposterously ugly and not skewed correctly from the original. Boxer looks like a giant.

3) Difficulty and Learning Curve geared towards casual players

I’m going to quote a post I saw on OzHadou.net by one of Australia’s top players:

Peter wrote:
My guess is that the real reason is that people who prefer ST over HDR is because in HDR people who could never beat ST players suddenly can beat them in HDR, thanks to more friendly execution etc.

vlade wrote:
Thats exactly right, correct!. Lately I’ve gone back to ST on GGPO and I am dominating a lot of the good Japanese and US players with 0-Sagat, and ST Guile out of nowhere, my win ratio is very good, I may lose here and there but then I get a run and win 10-20 matches in a row, this is against the very top players as well. I jump on HDR, it feels like a babies game, seriously. I mean, I love HDR, but you don’t need to be a very skilled SF player to win consistently. All that spacing, timing we learned in ST over the years, you can almost forget about it in HDR, because your opponent can easily get in closer now, the options are there for the everyday player to have a chance to win, which is more appealing to the public perhaps.

I won HDR last year at OHN7, by playing well, but not great either. I made the final of ST by playing mediocre for the most part, but when it counted, I played well, it was all over the shop (due to one of the arcade machines having terrible sticks, and one machine had a better setup). However!, I find that you have to play at a much much higher level at ST to win the majors. HDR, you can just get on a momentum streak, one combo with T-Hawk, your almost there, combo into super, you’ve won - easy execution, you’re there. ST is harder to play, plain and simple, flat out harder game to be good at. Maybe what Justin Wong feels? is that all the hard work we put in ST over the years pays off when playing ST, but then HDR learning curve is easier, and all the skills we learned in ST doesn’t really help us all that much? perhaps. Maybe Justin Wong can’t dominate the same as he once did in ST, as that could be a reason.

My opinion is that, in ST the really good players are at a much higher level than everyone else, and therefore harder for anyone to touch them. In HDR, you are always in with a fighting chance. The very best ST players will probably prefer ST, unless they win a lot in HDR too. And I also think that, as long as your winning then it’s a good game, once you lose or can’t dominate, then opinions start to change.

To be fair - I can’t find any reasons to get rid of one or the other, but only keep both games IMO, and run them both as majors.

**
4) Execution flaws from new input changes**

Okay I think we all got pissed off at the random input windows of the original from time to time. In addition to shorter input windows, the random factor made skills such as piano input skew gameplay more heavily in favor of experts, which goes back to the point made in #3.

Unfortunately, while I’m sure Sirlin had good intentions, some of the changes he made were not well thought out, and ironically these “easier inputs” cause inadvertent input overlap which is a DESIGN FLAW. Couple examples:

As NKI wrote:
“The new motion for her air SBK (charge down, up+kick) messes up the ability to do instant jump straight up RH as anti air from a full crouch. You’ll end up getting instant air SBK, which means you get bopped for free.”

As a Chun player I completely understand this and it severely limits her already shitty anti-air options. I don’t think this is a bias balance issue, its a straight up unintended design flaw. What if some crappy input change prevented you from doing a Shoryuken or Fireball from crouch and you were guaranteed a new move that left you wide open instead? Yeah.

As Ganelon talked about, Claw’s BnB combo of j.HP/j.HK, d. MK, d. MP will sometimes get you an unintended flip instead due to the input overlap. The timing on this link combo is very strict to prevent getting reversaled, and in HDR if you do it at the correct speed like you did in ST you’re likely to get the flip. I’m guessing Blanka has this problem as well. Again, this is not a character bias, it is a design flaw regarding input.

Ironically, the easier inputs in HDR generally make it more likely you will do an unintended special by mistake so you have to watch your step more. At high level play for players who have their execution down, you should be able to do exactly what you want to do and not worry about this shit. This goes back to #3, but I’m sure a lot of casual gamers will be like “HEY COOL A FIREBALL CAME OUT!”

But at least it’s not as bad as SF4’s inputs.

5) Lifebar drain speed

I’ve never heard anyone talk about this but it’s something subtle that I think is important. In ST the lifebars drain gradually after receiving damage. This means after a big combo it would take a little while to register how much life the person had left, and with the random damage factor in ST this is amplified. This rewarded expert players who had the ability to make intelligent decisions in a split second of what to do next, based on how much life was taken off of them or their opponent. In HDR the lifebars register the damage of a move instantly, which gives you more time to make decisions which makes it easier for less experienced and slower thinking players.

Anyway that’s my two cents for now. HDR is fun and the tiers seem to be more compressed right now, but I think ST is the superior, more rewarding game for high level play.

118

You mean like the year Evo used AE?

119

by the same logic we should stop playing SF4 and go back to CVS2

120

I’m not using my logic to say that people should stop playing HDR though, nor to say that those who enjoy HDR should go back to ST. I’m just saying that I prefer ST, and that the argument that HDR makes it obsolete isn’t accurate for those who prefer ST.