seriously, imagine the marvel community if some idiot decided to make marvel vs. capcom 2 high definition remix
lol
Thanks for the replies.
I never got into ST until recently. I personally like some of the changes in HDR, at least the subtle ones (ie, ken’s fierce DP knocking down and juggling, DJ’s dread kicks combo-ing almost every time). Some of those things just feel better to me. I also don’t mind the supers being toned down slightly. I don’t like when the characters are changed fairly significantly. ie, Fei Long being a whole new character, Chun’s weird-o spinning bird, etc. If I were to make changes, I would have just gone for a less is more approach.
Of course the problem with making some changes and not others is nobody will agree on how far one should go, so I can see the argument for not making any changes at all.
So one reason a lot of people don’t like HDR is because ST is already an old game and they’re used to it. Hypothetically, if the remix changes were made say, one or two years after ST came out, how would your opinions about accepting HDR change? Would they? ie, if “Remix” was just another iteration and was released to arcade in 1995, would you feel the same way about the changes?
Personally i dont like the design of HDR Vega. And there was no need to do changes in a game that was, as i said, already perfect…
ST is for OG Gangstas, Who need to relive the Street fighter glory days. I could never give up that game.
There are lots of different areas to complain about HDRemix in relation to ST. I think the first obvious one is that the game was promised as an attempt to rebalance ST, but in the end, it turned out to be much more. Character tweaks ranged from the very subtle (Bison’s Stand Jab) to the complete overhaul of moves (Fei Long’s Short Chicken Wing) to the confusion of just wondering why certain things were put in (Dee Jay’s MGU eating Fireballs). The game should have been mostly subtle tweaks, really. But by changing Fei Long so drasitcally, you never know where it’s gonna end up. On the other hand, I like how Zangief was tweaked, for example. Nothing major, just a lot of very small, subtle things to help him fight better. But mostly you’ll use the same strategies you did before but just have a few extra weapons to help out. I also really like Ken. Mostly, all of his moves were changed to be a bit more practical, but overall, his game strategy hadn’t evolved much. He’s better, but not through some crazy encompassing change.
Another concern is that some tweaks just didn’t pan out as originally thought. T.Hawk’s safe dive seemed like a great idea at first, but turned out to not be extremely useful. Hawk’s problems extended far beyond trying to “get in”, because he actually didn’t have a HORRIBLE time getting in. So losing the Knock-Down on the Dive turned out worse for Hawk in some matches. Another example is the change to Chun’s Spinning Bird Kicks. The change to the ground Bird Kick turned out to hurt her slightly because the startup was so much faster, making her lose the useful length of the original’s invincibility. Sure those moments were few and very rare where you’d need that, but the new Bird Kick adds little to her game so it feels like the change turned out to be a needless one. Also, the Air Spinning Bird Kick code has ruined one of her better Anti-air defenses in Jumping Straight-up Roundhouse. So again, a lot of the changes just didn’t end up the way they should have, and may have not been thought out quite enough.
The other problem is that many of the changes were just too simple. The subtlety of ST is largely missing now, in HDRemix. For example, it’s actually a viable strategy for Fei Long to do Short Chicken Wing 4 times in a row. I’ve done it lots of times. Cammy went from being a really detailed, match-up oriented character, where you had to know all the depth, to a simple Cannon Drilling machine… so much to the point that her best move from original ST (Cannon Spike) was nerfed! (Of course, again, I’m a Cammy user, so I’m SUPER biased here about Cammy.) I just feel like the detail and strategy of many characters were thrown into a funnel, and the wide array of strategies and tactics they used before has been reduced to a smaller subset.
Now don’t get me wrong. I like a lot of thing HD Remix did. In fact, if I could find the perfect hybrid between ST and HD Remix, I’d probably prefer that game over all of them. If I could play ST with the Reversals for Ken, Sagat, and Dhalsim fixed, with the code for Zangief’s Green Hand and Ken’s Funky Kicks fixed, with Vega’s Wall Dive not Knocking Down, with the improved Gief, with the improved Ken, with an O.Sagat that has R.Sagat’s Low Fireball delay, etc., I’d actually be really happy.
- James
this.
I don’t like the rebalancing for many of the reasons chensor already touched, I don’t the way some of the characters look (sorry, but Hawk, Gief, Sim, and Blanka all look like shit), and I don’t like the new inputs for attacks to make it easier to do stuff - I don’t feel accomplished if I get a Hooligan anymore…
ST will never die!!!
I’m giving HDR a shot based on how it does at Evo. If it ends up providing diversity and depth of gameplay at the highest level then all its sins will be forgiven for me, because simply it would be fun to see the best players using some different characters, instead of the top-tier borefest that it had become for the past few years.
Still I’ll probably come back to ST time and time for the simple reason that I’m primarily an online player and GGPO netcode and matchmaking >>>> HDR netcode and matchmaking.
I thought HDR netcode is GGPO netcode? HDR matchmaking is poor though, for sure. The worst thing about HDR, I think, is that it looks awful. ST is still gorgeous like 15 years on and HDR just looks very gaudy especially some of the background art.
Nope!
They…
- consulted with Ponder about GGPO netcode
- tried to backwards engineer Ponder’s GGPO netcode
- consulted with Ponder about their own netcode
- licensed Ponder’s GGPO netcode
- still used their own netcode
I mean, I know we should be happy/thankful/impressed with them for creating something as solid as they did–it’s arguably better than anything else on console–but why the heck didn’t they just use GGPO? I don’t know how much of the story we’re missing but from what we’ve been told there are less than no excuses! :lol:
As far as I recall, the closest thing to a reason that was ever given was the open-for-interpretation statement that they had already spent so much time on their own netcode. I guess it was being implied that it would literally be a shame not to use it.
edit: wohp it’s 420, roll up my post and smoke it
Meh, the backgrounds I can get used to. But if it comes to nitpicking on the aesthetics then some of the stage music is ear bleedingly bad. Ryu’s we call “the music that never gets started.”
ahh, thanks for clearing that up i just remember all the “OMG they licensed ggpo!!!” stuff 
HDR has made me a worse player.
So I’m done with the semester and this is what I see…I thought the patch and the Akuma ban would have brought some life back into Remix, but apparently not.
I’ll be honest, I think the basic idea was good, as vanilla ST is a very flawed game and inferior to HF IMO. But I agree with a lot of James’s comments, and also think Remix didn’t help the low tier characters enough (particularly the Honda matchups). Fei-Long and Cammy may be easier and better, but they still aren’t going to make top 8 at Evo.
There is a larger point in all of this that I haven’t seen discussed on here before: SRK generally believes character/matchup balance to be by far the biggest factor in determining a game’s quality, but there is often a trade-off between that and tactical depth. Remix is clearly a better balanced game than ST, yet that balance brought other issues.
This actually reminds me a lot of Guilty Gear, with the Slash vs. Accent Core arguments. The latter is probably the most balanced 2-D game ever, with no 7-3 matchups at all, but some high-level players prefer Slash since Accent Core dumbed down a lot of characters…sound familiar?
My own take on this is that the balance improvements in AC were large enough to outweigh the negatives, but in Remix they are not. But more importantly, it seems to me like any significant balancing must have this trade-off to at least some degree; how would you make Cammy or Fei as good as Deejay without reducing the amount of thought required to play them?
If you’ll notice, in any game, top-tier characters are almost never the ones with the most tactical depth - more decisions to make per round means more room for error, which is especially important in a game like ST or GG where 1 or 2 of those errors will kill you. It’s been an accepted dogma on this forum for quite some time that you should always try to balance a game by improving everyone to top/upper-mid level, which is exactly what Sirlin tried…but with this in mind that may not be as worthy a goal as we thought.
Is my analysis off at all, and is there actually a way to have both that I don’t know about? Or is this more or less accurate?
I’ll always have a special place for classic st but hdr simply replaces it and makes it obsolete imo. It’s not perfect but it’s more balanced, better looking, and easier to focus on strategy rather then execution. Half the people in this thread are hating it ONLY because they don’t like having all that time they spent on execution coming so easy to the newer players…that’s as scrubby a mindset as you can get.
Random dp input windows ftl:rofl: =P
I disagree with that assessment. Sure, I think that STHD is an overall more balanced game. But as we’ve seen from SFA2->SFA2G, SFZ3->SFZ3U, VS->VS2/VH2, 3S->3S w/o aegis unblockables, CVS2->CVS2 EO, there’s also a fine line between the inertia of maintaining the current game and switching to an upgrade. Unlike players from pretty much every other series, western SF gamers (at the very least) won’t switch to a minor upgrade, even when the upgrade is a balance patch that removes overpowering tactics. That’s likely because these patches simply remove the tricks players learned to use and defend against while adding little, making their practice time spent worthless.
So while it’s been the Guilty Gear norm to switch to the next version every year regardless of change, SF players are more discriminate and seem to only agree on change when they see a major upgrade with characters, systems, and moves (and naturally, standards have risen since the days when “just” adding a comprehensive move makeover a la HF was taken wholeheartedly). Otherwise, they’re fine playing their current solid games.
Is STHD a major upgrade? That’s very hard to say for certain. Personally, I don’t think so and I think many players who’ve been playing ST for a long time feel the same, preferring the original ST that they practiced countless hours on over a dodgy remix. On the other hand, many newer folks who played more of STHD have taken the remix on as their frame of reference and think of the original ST as an unbalanced anachronism.
The fact that STHD divides the worldwide ST community is also an issue. As I said in an earlier topic discussing the merits of ST, Japan and Capcom developers have always realized games were unbalanced. Zangief was weak from the start and never really improved much; does anyone think he was ever meant to be balanced enough to compete at the top? Take claw for instance. He already had a devastating wall dive in SSF2 and was considered a great character; do people think that nobody knew about it until ST? They just didn’t have balance as their top priority.
Yes, they do take out game-breaking changes but the unevenness of character ability remained for JP players to amuse themselves. The ultimate examples are Sean and Q in 3S; anybody in a loketest could have seen that the characters were severely limited compared to other characters. But Capcom’s developers either didn’t feel it was important enough to change or they deliberately made them weak to begin with (which is a much more plausible situation).
It’s only with US designers like Goddard and Sirlin that the SF series have strove for balance as the central point in HF and STHD respectively. JP players like Aniken have said they enjoy knowingly playing a weaker character for the challenge and thrill of beating stronger characters. US players in general seem to care primarily about winning and doing so knowing that every character they face is equal. I’m not saying that either way is good or bad, just pointing out the difference in ideology and how balance (and esp. ease of play) hasn’t always been our community’s primary objective, nor does it even seem to be the most important aspect of a game for our neighbors in Japan.
So with all that in mind, it’s a tough call whether STHD possesses the traits to supersede ST. A lot is riding on the folks who will remain with STHD after a couple of years. If these people disappear as they lose interest or move onto future SFs (for example, if ST/HD loses its place in Evo), I can easily see ST being revived since as seen by the posts here, many people will still play this game as they have for over a decade. If that doesn’t happen, I have no clue. There’s no way both games can co-exist in the competitive scene; I have faith one game will be played at tourneys. I hope it’ll be ST but only time will tell…
Anyway, nice to have you back, Josh.
Give me HDR over ST any day.
Sirlin seems to have done Street Fighter proud. As it stands, I have no desire at all to return to classic ST.
Decent players of projectile throwers actually have to work a bit more (as opposed to very little or not at all in classic ST) to beat an experienced Honda, now that he has the jab HB and easier up+fierce steering. (Too bad the super is still punishable in mid-execution, though.)
A cornered Dictator is no longer doomed to hoping that Honda, Zangief, et al. screw up.
Claw is significantly less able to avail himself of “bullshit.” ( [media=youtube]P-PmNGOjGTw#t=0m11s[/media])
Gone are Cammy’s high-difficulty hooligan roll input and stupid hooligan/backfist overlapping, with the result that she can be played effectively with greater consistency, and that her depth of game play now enjoys greater exploration because more people are playing her.
The venerable James Chen declares Chun-Li’s HDR SBK of little use. To this I would point out that the old one was in fact minimally useful, having as it did little practical application beyond its use as a defensive reversal and the occasional fireball dodge. As a long-time Chun-Li player, I have gotten significantly more use out of the Sirlin SBK:
[LIST]
[]The stationary version makes dodging projectiles without losing her charge much easier.
[]Its extended “Hyper Fighting” hang time makes it a very effective last-ditch measure to avoid landing on projectiles and supers. It also makes flying characters (i.e. Claw and Dictator) easier to hit, and keeps them honest (i.e. less likely to spam wall dives/head stomps).
[]It can be used as a cross-up (!), complete with safety on block. (In fact, I’m pretty sure that Chun-Li has frame advantage afterward, to boot.)
[]The horizontal “Hyper Fighting” version hits another Chun-Li out of her super, without trading.
[]It works reliably as a counter against air fireballing Akumas. (At the proper distance, which isn’t difficult to judge, it misses the hadouken and hits Akuma cleanly.)
[]Because it is so low, the “breakdance” version (i.e. when her head touches the ground) is nigh invulnerable, and hits almost everything cleanly. (The trade-off is that it is very difficult to perform consistently.)
[*]It juggles.
[/LIST]
Oh, and no RANDOM INPUT WINDOWS.
I could go on, but the new version is popular with enough very good players that I don’t feel the need to defend it further.
All in all, I’d hope that the classic ST-loving nay-sayers would remember how long it took for all of Super Turbo’s goodness to come to light, and therefore give HDR more than the few months that it’s been out to come to a final decision.
Inputs aside, I still can’t see why people refer to HDR as “garbage” though, doesn’t make sense to me. Anyone have any reasons why it’s considered by some to be a bad game?
I think many ST players just don’t like Sirlin and the changes he did on their characters. It’s completely overlooked that he took serious a LOT of the top players advices and
this.