I think if you have 2 people of equal skill, one is rushdown and the other is a turtle. In this game the turtler wins most of the time. I wish I turtled I’d win alot more, but it wouldnt make this game worth playing.
If someone exclusively turtles and just waits for a mistake by the other person, the turtler is more likely to fall for throws, overheads and guard crush strings while they sit on crouch block and their meter. This holds especially true for charge move characters.
When they start becoming punching bags, they are forced to go on the offensive, causing them to make more mistakes, giving you free shots.
There is a big difference between turtling and staying on the defensive. Generally, you should never hold crouch block and wait for the other person to do something, whether you are ahead or behind in a round, because you will be taken out of your game, giving the other person a huge advantage.
Back @ work here where this whole extravaganza started…
Listen Jin, I can beat a turtle. I never said I couldn’t. I don’t like to play against a turtle, it’s boring, not fun, etc. My first post I said turtle’s can’t be beat, that was intended as a joke, then I specifically told you “Of course you can beat turtles, if not then everyone would do it!”
My problem is it’s boring to play them, regardless of if I win. I do play to win, but it’s not the only reason I play. Let me get into specifics, I play C-Chun, and let’s say a turtle is using K-Sagat. This is a typical match up for me, and plenty of turtles use K-Sagat. Now obviously I can’t jump in, no need to state why, it becomes a pokes match. Let’s say I’m forced to turtle back in order to have a chance…this is where I say some skill takes place, for instance, I zone in & out of Sagat’s range and bait a standing/crouching fierce, or even standing forward…I counter-hit with standing Strong. Yeah, I’m winning, now I sit back and repeat process during the duration of the match. Now I have meter, and I’ve hit Sagat with quite a few standing strong’s, there’s no way he’s going to throw out any pokes in fear of standing strong xx super. Time runs out, I win. That was not fun for me. Of course this is a vague example, but matches tend to fall in this direction when you are playing a turtle.
It did not take as much skill to move back & forth and hitting one button to win, but I admit, it does take skill, therefore turtles do have skill. It definitely took plenty of patience, which I don’t have much of. I mean just thinking about that match makes me fall asleep.
Now you keep referring to Marvel turtles…this is CVS2, although turtle’s are universal, there is a difference between the two. Marvel’s game speed is twice that of CVS2. I’m pretty sure turtles like things slow, c’mon they’re turtles. So if you’re going to use examples, please stick to CVS2 only (which you have done somewhat,) but you even said that you are not too familiar with CVS2, but you keep posting stuff to make it seem like you know more about CVS2 than me, not saying I’m the master, but I wouldn’t go to a Marvel thread and act as if I know anything on the any subject. I play 3S, and I’ve never posted in that thread yet, because I don’t know it as well as CVS2.
The question is are turtles skillful, you’ve answered it, thanks, now give some examples relating to the actual game in discussion, IN DETAIL…of course I don’t let them just sit there, but I gave you a specific match-up as to why THEY can just sit there. If throwing a fireball would stop all turtles, then no one would ever turtle. Low jumps aren’t always the answer. If you think so, keep low jumping on Sagat, and let’s see how many standing fierce’s you get by.
Oh and btw, box, you are absolutely right, hating on them doesn’t seem right, which is why I’ve swallowed my pride and have started to admit that it does take skill to turtle. But I’m glad you understand where I’m coming from, because I don’t think I was explaining things well…whew!
Keep it coming folks…
If you are C-Chun vs. Sagat, you should be attempting to land a SBK at some point in the match. Good Sagat’s won’t let you in, but that’s something you should look out for. It helps you break his guard, at which point you get free damage. The ground game in this particular matchup is stressful, but it’s a lot better than vs. C-Sagat. K-Sagat can’t build up meter unless you’re hitting him (whether it’s eaten or JD’d), so you don’t have to worry about the random fierce into super. Just play it like you said to, and you shouldn’t have any problems. The thing you are doing wrong is looking at the STRATEGY to determine if a player is skillful or not. The skill is determined by the win. Look at it this way - a K-Sagat team has 20 wins and used turtling tactics most of the time. During that streak, an A-Sakura team has lost about 10 times, but in each of his losses he has gotten the CC. The CC is flashy, but take it from me, it’s easy to do once you practice it enough. It’s just muscle memory. It’s much harder to get 20 wins, or in other words, it takes much more skill. I personally like playing against people that have those types of win streaks rather than against people that I can just go brain-dead on and do my CCs whenever I want. It may come as shocking to some people out there, but a lot of people play against people because they like the thrill of competition. If you’re only playing to have fun, you can do that at home. The reason to play against people (I think) is to face different styles of play and see how you fare against them. Turtling is one of those styles.
DAYUMM!!!
Gunter layin it DOWN! Thanks for that post that shit was inspiring!
Okay Gunter, I’ll give you this, playing against turtles has made me advance technically, or fundamentally. If it weren’t for turtles, I would’ve never have trained to learn how to do standing poke xx super with Chun or any character for that matter, so yes they have helped me become a better player.
Also, I do seek the thrill of competition, I just would rather win against someone who hits me with Sak’s CC, than win against someone who hits me with a few normals, but the match took an hour. Or I guess I will give more props to someone who has a 20 game win streak that is more “video-friendly,” than someone who has a 20 game win streak that is “sleep-aid friendly.” But I do see your point there with the K-Groove getting 20 wins even though he’s eaten Sak’s CC. That does take skill.
And back on the subject of seeking comp, I’m lucky enough to live in Nor-Cal, so for CVS2 this is big. So whenever I get a chance to play a top player, I take it, I never shy away from anyone I know is better than me. I’m not just seeking to play against some player that I know I will land combos on.
But I guess wins = skills, so I won’t argue against that.
ok one question… u have turtles… and rushers… so what do u call those guys in the middle? the one that baits u to attack and comes at u?
super turtles?
No, Ninja Turtles.
I know this may seem kinda weird, but mentally you can win when you phiscally lose. I’ve seen it happen before. For example my buddy Trinh Nguyen used ratio 4 N-Sagat against LTB’s P groove team in a tournament not to long ago. Of course Trinh had lost, however he pulled some fancy lookin combos and gave us (the audiance) the thrill of watching a Ratio 4 character beat down on Ratio 1’s.
A person will always be remembered if they made a fancy combo in the match in example Soo Mighty. Fancy combos, or cool looking parry’s etc. will always boost your charisma as a player.
You may have lost the match, however you pulled a really nice combo that will be memorable even through your loss.
Enter Leezy vs JWong…who JDs entire supers and loses in two hits the next round? Yeah…Pro…
Gunter: We miss you. The thrill of competition is there, but the showboating is the main reason I don’t just stay at home to practice. You guys encourage my style of play, even though you criticize (which is always welcome, by the way) when I fuck up because I was trying to do something cool. All those times you, Buk, Kim, etc. yell out “Leezy,” or the distinctive way Campbell says “Eric Lee!” after I hit an infinite, crazy Kim corner combo, or JD something ridiculous promotes showmanship. I think it’s good for the gaming scene to have players who can compete, but would rather have fun than just win. I think it keeps players, especially new ones, interested in the game. I mean, it’s 4 years old now, and people still come up with new shit. People try to learn Kim 'cause of Final Showdown and myself (hopefully), Morrigan is synonymous with Buktooth, Ricky and Vega are the same person (Ricky leaves the claw at home 'cause he can’t play with it on).
So yeah; turtles, rushers, in-betweeners, showboaters…all have a place in this world. All are skillful, and all deserve credit for keeping this gaming genre alive. By the way, I’m trying C-Yun 'cause of EdMa, and haven’t given up Maki after being beasted by Keith and Allen.
A good defense is just as hard as a good offense imo. They both require positioning and guessing, and dexterity to some extent.
It sounds like you’re not seeing true turtlers by your description. You’re just facing sitters. They just sit there. And sit.
No, I’m just vague with my description, I’m facing turtles, but to go into TOO much detail would make my post longer than it already is (I’m already posting chapters)…I tried to go into detail with my C-Chun vs. K-Sagat, but yes, it was just a portion of what it is like to face a turtle.
Yes turtles have good defense.
If you don’t like the way the game is played assuming you know how it’s truly played then play a different game.
And there’s no way that he’ll nail you with a standing fierce each time unless your low jumping everytime.
Mix it up!
and i SINCERELY doubt you can run the clock the whole match.
Maybe the last 20 seconds but no way can you keep someone off of you for the whole match without putting obstacles in his way, then you are zoning and playing keep away, not turtling, back dashing and running away.
Shmy: A good thing about playing turtles… even in casual play… is that at least you’re exposed to it. You won’t be overwhelmed/surprised when someone plays turtle style in a tournament against you. At EVO2004, Daigo lost to 2 turtles (Ratio1beatdown and Eddie Lee). He probably was not prepared for that style and things may have been different if it was best 2 of 3. He just didn’t know how to fight it for those 2 matches.
Anyhow, it’s good to play a variety of styles, so you won’t be surprised come tourney time. I have yet to play a really good rushdown player. I wish I could play Ino or Ohnuki someday.
Jin, you are NOT reading my post. I can beat turtles, Ive beaten so many I could make turtle soup for a whole year! I just think that theyre boring to play! I felt that they did not possess the skills to make the game fun & interesting, FELT, as in past tense. A few post by some peeps (primarily Box & Gunter) have helped change my mind somewhat. Somewhat
Jin, the game is fun, turtles are boring. Im not going to stop playing the game because of a few boring matches with some people. If you play to win, and you lost a few times, would you stop playing?
Now, you have consistently replied to my post with “how to” beat turtle tactics. I dont need that. I even started this thread saying, This is not a thread about how to beat turtles Then I followed it with a joke that everyone got, except you. The post on the match up scenario was to give you an idea of how boring/basic a match with a turtle can be. Seeming as if no skill were involved. Not how impossible it is to defeat a turtle. I even stated that I won the match in that example.
The topic we should be discussing is
DO YOU THINK TURTLES ARE SKILLFUL? YES already, both you, and now I agree on that. Youve answered that question already.
If you want to give me some “how to” advice, then tell me how to view a match with a turtle as fun, until then, please stop posting. I have welcomed everyones advice, but everyone has posted something relevant to the topic. Now I apologize if I sound rude in this post, please dont take this is as if Im hating on you. Im not. Its just I dont think you fully understand what were talking about, so Im trying my best to make it clear to you, so you dont end up posting something like If you dont like the way the game is truly played than dont play" again. That was uncalled for. And how is the game truly played? I offer you a thumbs up sign now (there was no peace sign,) because I dont want this to be a flame war thread, or for there to be any animosity between anyone. :tup:
Box:
I play at an arcade where there are few to no turtles on a daily basis. So Ive been lucky, all matches are exciting, and very few drag along. I would say that there is one turtle to every 5-6 players. When that one turtle does come along, I do try to take advantage of the situation and learn to play against that style. Like I said to Gunter, if it werent for turtles, I wouldve probably never trained to do poke supers, which has made my ground game improve tremendously. My attitude is just Oh, youre one of those type of players, this is going to be boring. I mean, the game has so much to offer, and turtles sometimes just seem lazyand I guess thats why I view them as less skillful. But now I see that winning does take skill, so every piece of advice given has helped me change my view on the topic. Thanks to you all, and sorry for the long @$$ post everyone, but please continue to flood this thread with your opinions.
hey shmy, do you have the EVO DVD? I’m curious to know if you enjoyed the CvS2 matches on there. A lot of people have complained about the “boring poke wars”, but I personally found them to be entertaining and helpful in my own game.
There’s a fair amount of turtling going on in those matches. However, I still believe the matches were exciting because it was this whole conceptualization of mind games…take Ricky’s A-Sak vs. Dan’s C-Sagat…that was all pretty much long range pokes, but there was a guessing game (albeit somewhat in Ricky’s favor) that showed a lot of mind games…was Sakura gonna s.RH, or s.Strong? From how far away?
Sounds really basic…but I’m sure you and others on this forum have seen (and performed) the flashy combos that really only impresses the people who are only slightly familiar with the game. There isn’t a single Ken combo on the DVD that blows my mind away. I’m not really watching the EVO DVD to be amazed by sick combos (already got…other videos…must not mention…), I watch it to see how other people use the characters of CvS2, and their individual nuances (mind games, timing, etc.)
Anyway…there’s fun to be had in turtle matches. You just gotta find your own brand of it…
Yeah you’re right. I try to look at turtle matches as playing a game of chess now. Only problem is chess gets boring to me after a while. Also if I look at it that way, I realize that turtling is skillful, because chess is a game of skill. Especially mentally.
I’m trying to force myself to think that it’s not boring, it’s technical. Like seeing pass the flash of a dunk, and looking at the beauty of a jump shot with proper form (Ray Allen). If I look at it that way, I start to favor it more.
But yeah, combos do impress top players as well, not just noobs. Also thank goodness you can link supers off certain pokes, it makes poke wars more fun to watch.
Also I prefer match vids over combo vids 10 to 1. I like watching match vids with combos, and try to see how the player sets it up. If a match is primarily just poke here, poke there, I admit, I’ll skip it.
Playing against a hardcore turtle during CASUALS can be one of the most boring/frustrating things in the entire game of CVS2. It’s often pretty difficult to beat a SERIOUS turtler during casuals when you aren’t exactly focusing/trying as hard as you would otherwise in a tournament. What makes it even worse is when you’re picking a “fun team” and aren’t really use to breaking down turtles with it.
Tournaments are a different story though… I don’t think I’ve ever really been bored (at least since I started to play more competitively) playing a hardcore turtle in a tournament match. I’m much more focused on what I should be doing to win, rather than trying to get mad at someone for breaking me doww. If you’re already losing and you start to lose focus, you’re pretty much dead. You really have to ditch what you think about certain playstyles during tournies, because in the end it’s only the win that counts.
The only time I LIKE playing against turtles is when I need practice for a tournament.
Byron, playing at the Bearcade is really fun because none of the good players ever really turtle while playing casuals. If you had gone to more tournies a while back you would’ve seen people like Tae actually playing a strong turtle/patient style and being super effective with it (that’s why he was the most consistent player for the most part). It was actually REALLY good practice playing there back then, but now it’s mostly to mess around and pick fun chars than it is for hardcore tourney training.
There are times when hating on turtles is understandable, but I think it’s best if you just learn to live with it in general. Better to get use to it sooner than later.
WOW :wow:
IKiELELTHNHHSHTKII responding to my thread.
Yeah Kieth I’m going to be honest with you…I started this thread because I was bored at work, and so the first thing that came to mind was turtles (don’t know why.) But yeah, it’s not a big deal, I know that people turtle during tournies, even in that one tourney I played in at the BEARcade (where I was whooping your ass & then your Sagat came back on me,) I cut back on my aggressiveness, and I still found the tourney fun.
But this thread is dying (or dead already,) you’re the first to post in a while.
What i am saying to you
is that cvs2 has turtles
if you don’t like the turtles which are part of the game you can either quit for something less turtle friendly or you can deal with it.
It’s like someone complaining about sagat cuz of crouching fierce or me complaining about magneto because his tri jumps are too fast.
It’s part of the game if you really hate it that much maybe it’s not the game for you.
The way i see it if someone is playing defensive it either gives me experience in:
a) playing keepaway vs. a keepaway player
b) practice my rush down
that’s just IMO
i’m not trying to put you down, but seriously dude what can i say?
edit: if it’s not a big deal the dont’ even worry about it