Question about turtles

Classic Fighting Games Capcom VS SNK 2
1

This is not going to be about how to beat turtles, because it’s obvious, you can’t beat them. This is more a question about what players feel about their skill…

Most turtles aren’t fancy (obviously,) and they don’t do many jaw dropping combos, or tricks. In fact, they’re probably happy just knowing how to do ducking Fierce xx super with Sagat.

But on the flip side, most turtles are PATIENT, which is a good thing btw, and they do have knowledge on their characters pokes & range, etc. Anything that helps them sit back and give the least amount of effort to win.

My question is, would you consider these players good? I’ve seen turtle players sit back, get on a small streak beating players who can do the craziest things!

Is it about style of play & difficulty, or WINS? I’m starting to at least understand why people turtle, but I will never cross over to the dark side! I just won’t hate as much.

2

depends where and why you are playing… if it’s a tourney, and competition is rough, turtling can kick ass, but if it’s for fun, go for combos and shiet dag nabbit!

I do give turtles props though, it’s a combination of knowledge about the game (normals, rc and stuff) and lotsa patience…

3

If the turtler is winning, then he deserves it. He found a strategy that his opponents cannot overcome and he’s using it. That’s what every sports team does.

Why pull off crazy shit that’s gonna make you lose, when you can actually implement a strategy that will help you win. You don’t see Basketball teams going for 360/windmill slam dunks in basketball games. And you don’t see football teams throwing hail marys every single play. Sure it’s crazy shit, but it’s just poor strategy that will make you lose the game.

It’s a game about winning. Not a style contest. It’s like football… not Figure skating.

4

The dark side that you are speaking of is the WINNING side.

Turtling isn’t bad. Rushdown isn’t good. They’re just different styles. In competition, you do what it takes to win. Good players make adjustments to their styles in order to win. You can’t rushdown all the time if you want to win, just like you can’t turtle all the time. What you should TRY to do… is WIN all the time. Don’t worry about if it’s by turtling, or if it’s by rushdown, or if it’s not FUN for the opponent (inside tip: it’s not SUPPOSED to be… the FUN in competition is in the WINNING), or if it’s the “dark side.” Worry about the win.

5

I agree with Gunter’s post, that a good balance makes you better prepared for any given situation. I’ll admit, I’m “Gung Ho,” and very im-patient, so turtling and me don’t really get along. Also, since I’m admitting my faults, I don’t play to win, I do play to do cool shit! Which is why I’m always in C-Groove. I should play to win more often. Then again, I don’t play tournies, so playing to win doesn’t give me a pot of gold at the end. So there, that is why I am biased, but like I said, I’m starting to see why people turtle.

Look, I’m playing for fun, which is what we all should be playing for, I know I am not going to make a living off of this game, but it would be nice if I could make a name for myself. And all I’m saying is that turtles are un-known. You’ve all heard of all the top players, no need to mention them again, but we never hear of the turtle players. It’s like, “Oh, there’s John Choi,” and then “Oh, there’s the guy who turtles all the time.” The guy who turtles all the time could have just beaten John Choi, and I don’t think anyone would care. Or “Hey I just heard that Turtle Fiend just killed Combo Fiend!” When would you ever hear that?

So winning in all actuallity, isn’t that important to me. Because if you don’t win with some sort of style, know one will care. Now if I were getting paid per win, then shit, I would turtle all the time.

Here Box, let me put it in terms of football for you, since you like to compare CVS2 to sports. Terrell Owens would be the opposite of a turtle, he’s flashy. Troy Brown is a turtle, he’s fundamentally sound. Troy Brown has the ring, but which player would you rather be?

My original question btw, is do you think turtles are good players. NOT is turtling wrong, of course it’s not wrong, it’s part of the game.

6

:clap: same here

but as they say… mmmmmmmmmmmm i love turtle :lame:

but pick up kim in C, he has the best cancels and juggles :tup:

7

Shmy: In answering your question: Are turtlers good players? Yes and no. The answer depends on whether or not they are winning. Cause good players are the ones that win regardless of whether they turtle or not. So if the turtler wins, then he’s a good player. If he loses, then he sucks.

And guys like John Choi are known around the community because they win… not because they don’t turtle. There’s turtlers out there like Justin Wong who wins. If someone rushes down, but loses all the time, no one is gonna remember his name. If someone turtles and wins all the time (I.E Justin Wong), then people are gonna remember him. People remember the winners, regardless of whether they turtle or not.

And to be honest I’d rather be the football player with the ring. Because winning a championship is a lot harder and more prestigious than being a flashy player.

8

You can beat turtles

there is absolutely no shame in turtling and it’s just as skillfull as rushdown.

I think you lack experience.

It’s fact that you can beat someone who turtles, just look at Wong vs. Daigo.

Just try throws, command throws, overheads, and in this game short jumps to break a turtle’s shell.

And i play guile in cvs2, i also play zangief in mvc2 you’ll find that most people who are good at turtling are good at rushdown aswell.

9

BTW, before I start, I’m not a “Rush-Down” player by any means…

Box

Fair enough you stated your point with some valid facts to back it up, and winning does gain you notoriety. But I’m just a flashy guy, so I don’t think I personally will start to turtle, but I’ll give turtler’s their respect due, and consider them patient & knowledgable, but not as skillful. Definitely more patient.

Sports example again, Le Bron James is skillful (flashy), and John Stockton is knowledgable (turtle.) NOW I DEFINITELY KNOW, which player you would rather be, if not for the short shorts alone!

Still can’t believe you would rather be Troy Brown over T.O. !!!

10

That was intended as a joke, of course you can beat turtles, if you weren’t able to beat turtles, then everyone would turtle, and everyone would win, and that is impossible.

I don’t think I lack experience, buddy, but thanks for your concern.

Once again my question was do you think turtle players are good, I should have said skilled, so from now on I will change that to skilled…and you answered that when you said, “Yes, just as skillful as rush-down players.” Thanks.

11

On the contrary.

Try being a turtle in mvc2 see how far that gets you.

It’s hard to block shit,

Flashy shit is just flashy not more skillful it takes more dedication but it’s the application of the flashy combo or low tier that makes it skillful.

i mean what are you playing?

You don’t get meter for being flashy, whoever is winning is more skillfull at the game.

Yea it takes dedication and it’s entertaining to watch myke z pull off a flashy combo and it does take skill to do (and more dedication than normal) but you should know when to draw the line between a combo/set up that’s practical and a combo/set up that isn’t useful/does more damage/won’t fool anyone and is just fancy.

IMO u shouldn’t use flashy comboes or low tiers for that matter as a excuse for losing (not saying you are tho).

Viscant was a avid low tier user in mvc2 no less, and even he held the opinion that the game shows you who was better, it’s the person who won.

Yes it’s harder to use low tiers or flashy comboes but no one is forcing you to use them, don’t degrade the other guy’s skill.

I mean take jwong for instance, in mvc2 he knows how to use low tiers and uses them alot in casual matches and he usually pulls off hella flashy comboes morrigan infinite … he also ALWAYS uses top tiers in the actual tournament and i never see him do something impractical or flashy.

Just cuz you use top tiers, or turtle doesn’t mean you have any less skill.

12

I’m sorry I don’t know anything about MVC2, I thought this was a CVS2 thread.

But hey, you made some valid points as well, and this is why I created this thread, it’s because I hate on turtles, and I feel that I shouldn’t.

Which is why I want all your opinions on why turtling is considered skillful, because I’m trying to see it that way. Right now, I still don’t, so everyone continue to post, and I’ll gladly use your opinions to help form a less biased opinion on the subject.

13

Yea well turtles are universal i think mvc2 and 3s turtles belong in this subject.

cvs2 is known as a turtle friendly game but i once talked to buktooth and he said that it isn’t.

He said something like sure you could roll, bait whiffs, dp ect.

but he also said no one could ever look for all those things at once.

turtling also usually gives the opponent the intiative, they get first strike at you and if they exploit it they can get the ball rolling and you just have to sit there and take their guard string/mix up ect.

i’m a scrub at cvs2 though so i’ll leave it at this for now.

14

Shmy has experience, end of discussion on that.

Tournament experience is a different story. Not having played in tournaments affects playing style. Never “needing” to win will cause someone to have fun even when they’re not winning. I am all for show, even in tournaments. I do draw the line occasionally, and play solid to get a win. I fuck up all the time, and admit when I was trying something too flashy and lost. I have no problem with the loss, as long as I was having fun. I hate on turtles all the time, 'cause they are boring to play and boring to watch. Sometimes, though, it is exciting to watch. Like when Ricky OCVs everyone with Vega, that’s kinda fun to watch. I think turtling is a skill, and a vital part of the game. I don’t do it much myself, and I don’t enjoy when people do it. I mean, how much fun is it to bust open a can of turtle soup with a kick ass combo in front of a hella big crowd? Compare that with the crowd’s reaction to someone who turtled their way to victory, people just kinda walk away…

So yeah, turtles are good players if they can compete (even if they don’t win). This game is about fun, period. Whether fun for you is winning or just messing around, it should remain a fun game.

15

turtling in tourny play is just as hard as giving a good rush down. If the playes are equally skilled, then the guy playing the turtler can adjust his game plan by either turtling with him, or know where his openings are and attack them.

16

You see, now here’s where you’re wrong. I’m a fan of winning… whether it’s flashy or not. So you see… in a Basketball game, I’d rather be Le Bron James/Kobe/Any other all-star. You on the other hand are a fan of just being flashy above winning the game. So that’d be analagous to a Harlem Globetrotter. And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. You can make a name for yourself by putting out some cool combo videos and stuff.

Again, skill is measured in who wins the game. According to your definition, since team NBA all-stars isn’t as flashy as the harlem globetrotters… then they’re a less skilled team. Skill is measured by who wins the games, not by how many fancy ball-tricks one can do in scoring a basket.

Stockton can’t dunk. Shaq can’t make free throws. That’s why they play the game according to the strengths they have at their disposal. Same thing with CvS2. There’s some people who are better at turtling than rushing down. And others who are better at rushing down than turtling. They play the game using their strengths. No reason to hate.

17

Man, you guys make it seem like I go out and do the craziest shit, and always lose. That’s not the case. Winning does not equal fun all the time. Not if you’re consistantly winning by doing nothing. Of course I will refer only to casual play @ this point, because I’ve only played in one tourney in my life.

I’m glad Leezy posted, and knocked some sense back into me, you see, I don’t have a problem with losing, which is what you guys make it seem to be, I have a problem of not being able to play the game. If I lose to Leezy, and he does the Kim corner cancel, or even Infinite’s me, than shit, I’m like “That’s tight!” During the whole match we were playing. Now this is a vague example, but if I lose to some turtle, who never moves during the whole match, waits for you to try and do something, gets one hit, and is content on letting the clock run out in order to get the win, than of course I will hate on turtles, and I will continue to view them as not as skillful, but more patient. And if this is how I have to win all the time, than I wouldn’t be happy with winning, but than again that’s just me.

And of course there are ways around a turtle, but it is tedious. And this is why I don’t like them, I AM NOT PATIENT! I’ve admitted my fault already. But like I said, I respect them, they play to win, I play to have fun. Maybe if I played more tournies, I would play to win more often, winning is fun, but It’s not the only reason why the game is fun.

Also let’s keep it all in the NBA box, the way I play is like the ALL-STAR game, yes you play to win, but don’t tell me in an ALL-STAR game that they are not playing for show. You’re telling me that Vince Carter would throw the ball off the backboard to himself, catch it and dunk it in any other game. Is that sound strategy?

You play as if it were a playoff game, which is cool, it is what I should do more often, plus you probably play in a lot of tournies. But if I played like that (especially in casual play) than I wouldn’t be able to pull off the Vince Carter.

I’m glad I started this thread because I was bored @ work, cause now when I go back, the 8 hours will just melt away.

Thanks people…keep posting!

18

I see where ur coming from… turtles are boring and they get u frustrated easily and that makes u screw up more…

as the saying goes… if u cant beat em… join em and if u cant join em piss em off…

just try turtling agaisnt a turtle and youl see what theyl do.

get a hit then run and put the pressure on them… and then theres always the taunt button. start building up ur bar and make THEM come to you…

I play alot of turtles… (hibiki) and if u dont JD or parry as much thats ur only option. bait then counter

19

Shmy: Oh. Okay I get ya. I think the reason why you play a lot of guys who don’t do flashy stuff in casual play is probably cause they’re just practicing for a tourney and they don’t wanna practice any moves that they probably won’t use in a tourney. I know a lot of people who are like that… I’m one of them… although I do enjoy doing random select every now and then. Still, hating on em for playing the way they do in casual doesn’t seem right to me.

20

You make it sound like turtling is some unbeatable tactic.

You said yourself your not patient it’s your own fault you are being beaten then.

for some people winning is fun.

If you don’t have fun with the game then play something else or play with someone that agrees to your house rules.

But if you are you aren’t really playing the game, you aren’t playing for competition.

Once you face someone who’s actually playing the game and utilizes the things that you ban in your house rules you’ll lose 10 times worse because you’d have so little experience against it.

NO ONE can get one hit and run away for the rest of the match (except gambit in mvc2 since he can do a glitch where he DISAPPEARS for the rest of the match, which is banned in competitive play), if you can’t pin them down i suggest you better yourself at rushdown.

I mean are you just letting them sit there?

Throw a fireball, run at them, low jump, do something…

If they can block all your ish then maybe it’s a advanced player or your rushdown is too predictable.

Turtling as far from unbeatable, and it takes skill to do since you can throw, low jump instant overhead them (yama with his rh and many others) , chip them… ect.

If someone is beating you with rc’s i remember someone saying RC back.

i can’t help you too much in the specifics of cvs2.

gl

edit: if you don’t play serious at least once in a while in casuals you are missing out on serious competition that will help you in tournaments.