I have a question about the PS360+ PCB and it’s more of a legal matter than a technical one.
It’s clearly the most versatile PCB around, but I want to know if the 360 part of it was developed and is sold legally. I know Datel got in some trouble a while back for reverse engineering microsofts 360 pads. I would be interested in using one of these in a stick, but for ethical reasons, I don’t want to support a product that isn’t 100% legit.
Can anyone shed some definite light on the subject? I know how forums are so please, if you don’t have any information, let’s keep speculation to a minimum.
Thank you.
The issue is not clear and cut, and unfortunately the law is never always black and white, there is alot of grey areas.
The PS360+, it is grey market.
The board sits in a legal grey area, especially with each country have their own laws on copyright, patents and trademarks.
For example China has some of the looses protection/enforcement of IP Laws, and even if you can prove a manufacturer violates a patent good luck trying to a verdict in court.
Also a trouble with international law is dealing with the wording or the letter of the law, as its the wording in the original language and not the language that its translated in that counts.
Too much speculation is involved as US patent laws allows for and encourages reverse engineering.
All I can tell you is Microsoft in now way authorized of the product, that does not mean the product is illegal.
Because those are FULL controllers and not just a board or kit to make your own.
Also at this point the Xbox 360 is near its end of it’s product cycle, it may not even be worth the effort for Microsoft to seek legal action.
If your moral compass is bothered by corporate IP, then you are really in the wrong niche field of interest. Seriously don’t even bother with sticks, or arcades or anything DIY.
Not even the legal experts always know where the lines actually are, it partially deals with how that IP holder treats their own IP.
Like how George Lucas was really lenient on fan productions and parodies for Star Wars.
Or if you have the Superman S Shield logo on a product and not the rest of superman as well DC comics really want their cut off the profits.
You can sell a painting of Super man in some heroic pose and sell it but not just his logo (same with Batman).
Both Sony and MS are learning from the controller missteps from last console generation and are making it more difficult for people to modify HW that runs code that they are only leasing to us (in their eyes). Any reverse engineering of said code or modification of HW is a violation of EULA and not only voids the warranty of the controller, it could possibly void the warranty of the console it’s connected to.
I read a really good article about this on engadgetWIRED(oops) yesterday, about how John Deere is fighting to have the government recognize that because their code is flowing in their tractors, the farmers are basically paying for something that really doesn’t belong to them. GM is pulling the same crap.
As for fan created works, There’s lots of myths out there about it. This blog talks about it, and has a video (it’s an hour long) from SDCC regarding Fan art.
PARODY works, however, ***ARE ***fair use, and are allowed by law.
Bottom line: it may rest in a grey area where it’s not fully illegal, but Akishop definitely did not pay MS for their “blessing” on the (proprietary) X360 portion of the PCB/chip. So by your criteria, it’s definitely not “100% legit”.
I understand the ambiguity. Thanks for the insight.
I’m really just looking for a ps4/ps3 compatible PCB that I could add to a 360 stick. The PS360+ was the fastest one available for both, but I didn’t want to pay for the 360 portion if it’s potentially using stolen code.
When it comes to manufactured products, they don’t have to be authorized to be legit.
Apple tried to sue a number of companies who makes products for iPhone or iPods, and the judge threw the case out.
As the judge ruled the product too generalized and the claim this device is for the iPhone in it self not violating any of Apple’s IP.
Yeah the PS360+ is in a different category from generic ear buds and shotty phone cases, The XBox 360 (it is not there yet) is approaching Retro console territory.
Like nothing Nintendo can do now can stop the Cthulhu or PS360+ from supporting the SNES as those design patents expired.
The argument against this is the First sales doctrine, which states once a item is sold, that product is the sole ownership of the buyer and he can do with that item as he or she wills.
You can’t go making copies for sale, but if you want to repair, modify, destroy or even resell the item you are fine. You are also allowed back up copies of your own media. Which does not violate the digital millennium copyright act.
I think we need to clarify the context of the word “legit” being used; that is:
The PS360+ is a legit product: it’s a well-know product from a well-known company, who provides support and updates to their product.
On the flipside, its use is technically not legally legit, as Akishop didn’t pay the licensing fees to MS to use authorized security chips on the boards.
I’ll try to clear up what I can for you, since I have done some work with controllers. The xbox360 contains a security chip on the PCB, this chip is similar to chips used in laptops, dish cards, etc. What happens is on one of the USB endpoints (think of them as pipes set up to send and receive data between two devices on USB) the console sends a request. The chip processes this request and sends an answer. This allows the concole to know the controller is legit.
Some how they have faked this transaction. There is no stolen code whatsoever. As a matter of fact they worked very hard to develop their own code for this function. Its not as easy as it sounds.
I understand the idea about protecting the consumer from bad products, etc. That is not their intent. They make it nearly impossible to get the chip and there are a ton of rules. I would bet that they haven’t even sold enough ps360+'s to even talk to Microsoft about licensing.
As far as your moral compass goes… Its up to you. The way I see it, Microsoft doesn’t want to fill this niche themselves and makes it incredibly difficult to do so by anyone else.
I thought it was pretty much understood that they just want to maintain a tight control (ie, from a monetary standpoint) which devices can or can’t be used on their console? I get the theory that it’s about “consumer protection”, but we really know that it’s not the case.
That being said, I still don’t think it makes the PS360+ any more “authentic” to use on an X360. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not knocking the work that was required to develop the code/chip, and I’ll be the first to admit that I have a PS360+ in my main arcade stick myself (admittedly more for a space reason; my other sticks all have various Mad Catz PCBs for the 360 side of use).
But an analogy would be like saying that I have a locked treasure chest that I only give a copy of the key to specific people, for whatever reason. If you take the time, effort and money to create a master/skeleton key that’ll open it, does that mean you should be entitled to the contents? I’d like to think not. Just because you have access doesn’t mean you deserve access, regardless of my original conditions/criteria for providing keys.
We’re unfortunately going off on tangents now that aren’t directly related to the OP’s original concern. Back to the original question in the original post: to reiterate, the PS360+ is a great product (that I use myself as well), but it’s by no means authorized or endorsed by Microsoft for use on the X360 in any way. Anything beyond that is a matter of personal morals/ethics.
That is exactly what that chip is. Same package and 8 pins. Wow didn’t expect them to go all out. Honestly that puts them in much less of a gray area for me. That is black market and a counterfeit chip. Would it stop me from buying one, no. The only reason my moral compass doesn’t go flying in circles on this one is that microsoft do not want you to achieve a very simple stick. They do no want cross platform compability and who wants multiple sticks/boards if you can avoid it. If they provided a means for these devices to be created and the guys behind ps360 just went right around that then I would think you’d have an argument for not supporting them.
But yes the man who originally cracked directtv cards worked on cracking that chip as well. It has all kinds of wire grids to fry the chip if touched,etc. You are only supposed to be able to get them from the security company. He said the only reason he was able to finally crack this device was the ability to buy 1000s of these chips on the Shenzhen market because of “Midnight shifts” at Chinese factories. Then he didn’t release his findings because he no longer is a black hat hacker lol.
I would not call it black market as nothing was actually stolen.
As the chip materials were paid for or these are over abundant surplus chips.
Often its cheaper for a factory to overproduce and item than it is to just stop production (paying for retooling and such to re-purpose that production line)
The Chines factories that produced the chips are outside of applicable US laws, the sale here isn’t illegal as they are legally manufactured.
You taking advantage of loop holes.
Yeah, that pretty much settles it. All I really want is the ps4 and ps3 function so I’ll just wait until someone gets that out in another board (phreakmods maybe?).
