No…the giants are making TvC into the laughing stock of SRK because we can’t have a dialogue about them without getting all up in arms. The giant lovers get all butt hurt whenever its brought up even though they’re presence has single handedly crushed this game. No one boo’d Sagat players in SF4. No one boo’d Bison players in CvS2, and no one boo’s Mag players in MvC2 yet the giants have been publicly booed at EVERY major this year and have caused more people to straight up lose interest in this game than they have brought in.
I personally gain nothing by them being gone since I know how to fight them, but I’m tired of seeing the community suffer because of the few hold outs that are attached to PTX’s robo tit.
I don’t like the fact that giants were in the team tourney because of the inability to counterpick. They counter certain chars way too hard for fixed chars to make sense.
On the other hand, I feel like if there were more people who took the game and the matchups seriously and figured out how to win, giant players would not crack top 8 at evo. But instead, thanks in part to the face that the community presents, we have a ton of people who don’t learn the matchup or quit the game altogether because they think or just hear that it’s “stupid.”
Double blind picks are always nice too… Enough said.
I agree though that there are two reasonable sides to this argument but they’re not being presented here, but I feel like people who know things about the game have to represent it or else nobody’s going to play.
^ I disagree about that tatsunoko recognition. nobody knew ANY character before the first time they saw them. you can get attached to ken the eagle just the same as you can get attached to ken masters.
Giants need to just be gone from tournament. If you want to attract more people then stop using giants. No one wants to see a robot like Sentinel where you can’t even combo him with two characters unless you have some grab to combo which is very rare which only a couple of the cast can do that. That is just boring and ever since Japanese version I have thought they were dumb. Ever since ll.nd was using PTX I always thought it was scrubby to use a giant. I realize people like playing giants because they are fun and no problem with that. I think when it gets to a tournament level they should not be allowed. TvC should strictly be 2v2 in tournaments.
After reading from 4 different people that said this…I don’t blame you for wanting to leave.
This community is really fucked up somewhere…don’t blame the Wii.
There was something fundamentally lacking in Psychochronic’s strategy. Most of the time, he spends the match fishing for rockets with the left gun until he gets two rockets for a gun super. His pressure into keeping Marn’s Zero from running away was severely lacking. Zero was free to roam and spam.
I’m not trying to bash anyone, but it’s not the character in this regard, it’s the playing style of the guy behind PTX-40A. It was one-sided and the person who had the upperhand was left to use an effective but redundant strategy. This is generally the reason for the popular “giant fights are boring” phrase.
Carrying on to some of your other good points.
Now this is very interesting. You are referring to the effect that giants have on the game, yet the only name I see on there is PTX’s.
The reason for this is obvious, PTX is simply the more versatile giant.
Now this is strange, because you mentioned how everyone already adapted to PTX-40A. If such was the case, PTX-40A would not be a huge problem to fight against in tournaments.
The reality is that PTX-40A still poses a threat against many players because they do not understand all of his shenanigans. If PTX-40A was on Lightan’s level, allowing giants would not have been such a hotly debated topic.
You say giants have a negative effect on TvC, but what about Zero? Here we have a character who’s capable of building meter really quickly with long combos and has tremendous pressure and mix-ups. He’s almost everything Karas was in the original TvC, and the way Karas is now is a result of a heavy nerf after Capcom realized how powerful he was in CGoH.
Many characters have a “negative” effect on a game, but not only is that arbitrary, but having a negative effect alone is not enough to call for a ban.
This is a good point.
Being good at the game shouldn’t really allow them to dictate what’s “right” for the game, although it probably does hold more fallacy than a stranger’s observation.
Not to mention that everyone who has proven themselves in the game, does not agree with the giants ban.
Agreed here for the most part.
However as giants, it’s usually the other person playing the numbers against us. We are the ones who have to adapt to the match-up if we choose to remain as the giant.
I believe the point you’re trying to make can be generalized as “The better player should win. Giants do not follow this concept, they are simply a counter-pick situation.” While this is true, once again, should this really warrant a ban?
Part of being a better player I believe is that you are aware of any match-up. In any game with diverse characters, there will be lopsided match-ups. Overcoming them is part of being a better player. If you are capable of beating a giant with any character as you claim, then surely you must realize that it’s not purely a rock-paper-scissor thing.
While knowing how to beat someone with the whole TvC cast would probably rule you as the better player, the vice versa does not apply. A better player is not necessarily a person who can beat you with every character. That being said, every tournament or fighting game will always have a situation where people feel that the better player should’ve won but is handicapped by limitation of what he/she uses.
Face it, every game will have scenarios where people will play the cards to win. It’s up to the other player to fight the odds really.
Carrying on to another good point.
Giant hussle is one problem. I could just use the boring redundant statement of “Oh they should’ve known the match-up” but as blunt and reasonable as that might be, I’ll avoid that for now.
I think this is more of a loophole within the rules and also a huge lack of courtesy between the two players. The one trying the giant hustle has to be quite dishonest to do something.
I thought of a rule and it might be silly that both players should select their first character before they select their second. If one guy chooses a giant, the other player has the option of selecting a second character he/she is more comfortable fighting a giant with.
Then again, a player should be prepared to fight a giant regardless. I believe every character can do something against them, and it’s not a simple water beats fire scenario.
Poor Kurasa…Do you really think Psychocronic played CORRECTLY against Marn? Please. The crowd boo’d because Psychocronic was a subpar PTX player. I’m not sure if you’ve heard of GCYoshi13, but he knows how to play PTX CORRECTLY. Just so you know he beat both Marn AND Kiets in a team tournament. People only boo when matches are boring. Matches with giants aren’t always boring.
You say the presence of giant players has “single-handedly” crushed this game? Are you seriously suggesting that the smallest minority of players poses such a big threat to the longevity of this game? Kurasa, that is an insult to both the community and yourself. That notion is completely biased, naive, and ridiculous all at the same time. You know what, maybe we SHOULD ostracize people from our community based on the character they choose. I’m sure that’ll help the community grow. Right…
You’ve yet to provide an example of how giants break the game. Your only argument is a totally bogus analogy comparing the giants to a game-breaking version of akuma or apocalypse and then insisting that the analogy is correct only because it was proposed by a player who has “proven” himself, which is completely irrelevant to the subject. Nice try though. You can keep feeling proud of yourself if you want, but please don’t think you can win a debate, much less sway opinions, using logical fallacies.
You also said that giants “invalidate teams”. I say any team has a chance against a giant as long as they know what the giant is capable of. It is a matter of knowledge, experience, and execution rather than character selection. If you can somehow convince me that all variables besides character choice are irrelevant in the outcome of a giant match, then I will agree that giants should be banned.
I do love how you resort to calling a minority “giant lovers” who are “attached to PTX’s robo tit”. Here is a top 8 TvC competitor, Kurasa, keepin it classy.
And one last thing. There’s more than one giant on the loose. Keep that in mind.
I started writing an article on this and will post it in a few days. I’m on my phone right now so I can’t respond to everything at present.
Off the top of my head:
Why do I have to keep it classy? I’m calling it as I see it.
I do know who GCY is and I was hella impressed with his robot. I also saw just how abusive PTX can be and fear that this game is going to degrade into PTX vs anti PTX. This isn’t simply “this char is good” its this char has a distinct advantage. Part of my article focuses on this.
Zero is not broke. Marn’s Zero is broke. I said the same thing in CGOH when people bitched about Karas. Marn is good and as a result makes his chars look like gods.
I’ve gone over effective Zero strategy on the IRC channel before, but those talks are fundamentally different than the discussion that will occur in GCY’s thread. And that’s because the normal rules apply when fighting Zero.
PTX is more like a boss than a normal char. Herein lies my problem.
Sure, people where unprepared for PTX at Evo. That falls on them because they knew he was legal. I’m not gonna take that away from you. Good job on reading the meta (real talk).
I can’t remember anything more that I wanted to address upfront.
Jesus christ! I just had a great response typed up but lost it. Suffice it to say I said this:
Magnomanx- Kurasa provided many examples of how giants break the game. The paragraph after you complain about him not doing address one of those complaints. Also, it is interesting how PTX is referenced more than Lightan but the majority of complaints apply to both.
GcYoshi, and other pro-giant players - I’m glad this has become a little more of a debate than a flat out internet flame war. Clearly there is a real issue here. I know it sucks for you giant players but it would seem the majority does not agree with you guys. But again, lets keep this educated. Its nice.
Jeff - You can call it being a scumbag, I call it playing the game. Ryry wasnt ready to fight giants. And he isnt a mutual friend, at all. That was the first time id ever met him. The concept of ‘dishonorable tactics’ is ludicrous and goes against everything this community has spent 20 years building. If thats your view, you can have it, but the way you’ve verbalized it is pretty lame toward me.
That said, this debate is mostly fueled by Kurasa, Marn, and Justin wanting the giants banned ‘for the good of the game’. I personally stood against that, as a purist who doesnt want to see anything banned in any game unless it is really breaking things. However, I’d said for a while that after Evo, TvC is pretty much dead, and that I’d be moving to Marvel 3 when it comes out. As a result, I no longer care if you ban giants or not, and will play in whatever TvC tournament with whatever rules anyone hosts for fun.
So, while I don’t support it, I no longer oppose it. Its simply not worth the trouble. I mean, look at Kurasa. I call this guy a friend, and he is on here badmouthing me for playing the game. Sorry I choked against Justin, man, but I was also pixels from beating KBeast in winners in my pool and definitely deserved to be top8. Ryry is a great player, but I saw his weakness against giants vs a PTX player and I exploited it. I played the game.
I’ve been getting a lot of requests to close this thread, and I wasnt even going to reply until I saw what Kurasa was saying. Now I have, and I’m going to leave it open because none of this matters. If any of you out there want to lose friends over some trash talk, or using rules to your advantage at a tournament, or whatever other reason, you go right ahead. I don’t have time for this 1995 crap.
Adam - the way you went about that whole RyRy match was grimy and I lost a lot of respect for you as a player when I heard about it. But for you, winning is winning. I guess the difference between us is that I don’t need deceit to win and won’t resort to it.
I understand that you felt that a giant was your best route and that’s fine. But the whole phone call jive was gross. You could have just been a man about it and asked for double blind. That said, RyRy should not have been so trusting and done the same since he knows that you play Lightan.
RyRy is my boy and so are you but I have to call it like I see it and that move was straight grime.
But whatevs son. You won. Congrats on your victory.
No Keits, you DID resort to dishonorable tactics against Ryry. You counter-picked before the first match even began. If you had went and chosen Lightan before Ryry chose his characters, then there would be no debate. But what you did was waited until AFTER he had chosen his characters to choose Lightan, under the guise of being occupied by your phone. Sorry Keits, but what you did was flat out dirty.
Another example of your bad sportsmanship: who wins a tournament in Socal and says “I’m the champion of Southern California…Just visiting!”? You are a bad sport and a gloater as well.
Im a trash talker. Get over it. I cant win a tournament and gloat a little now? You guys are too soft. Like I said, we can be friends, but when its tournament time you guys are my rivals! I’ll do what I can to get you off your game. Even after I won in SoCal, I offered some of my winnings to 3rd place because the math on the money wasnt working out correctly. Bad sport my ass. I just think talking shit is part of the game and is fun.
Hell yeah it was a dirty move. Ryry should have asked for double blind instead of picking first. Stalling on character select is perfectly legal. You all know that.
You guys playing to win or what? I thought I heard the last of ‘dishonorable tactics’ in 1997.
Back on topic - I’m running TvC at Seasons Beatings. What should I do about giants?
Ok first. I clearly said two of my top three teams DO NOT PLAY WELL AGAINST Giants. My top three teams are Cassh/Poli Cash/Alex and Ippatsu/Tekka. Only one of those teams has a really great chance against giants. Learn to read.
Second. Answer my question. How the fuck is Akuma and Pxt even on the smae planet in their games?? How man How!!!
Third Kay beast has never shown any loops off of var. Only buring two bars for 33 bil at max. If you do not know that alex on Var tag in does eaisly 14 bill off of A,B,C XX 63214C then you are again FUCKING STUPID. Not to mention reset throws and baroque on alex makes him Second best Var partner. Check it for yourself I have vids up of it and you can check it out if you really care to not look like a complete fool but I have seen where you are going with this. Why waste alex as an assit when you have baroque and could still get a charge shot loop but instead end it with an extra 14 bill??
Should I make a vid for you??? You know I will and you will look even more stupid than your giants/Akuma arguement.
You make me smile at how behind you are in this game.
