I was actually thinking of doing Injustice myself.
I just tested on the SF3 series, using Ryu vs Ken
New Generation: 17 FBs
Second Impact: 20 FBs
Third Strike: 21 FBs
What’s a “fake” fighting game then?
In any case both these games have Old Sagat as their top tier so might as well check THOSE projectiles.
MK9’s Top 5 characters are strong primarily due to their zoning. Kabal, Kenshi, Kitana, and Freddy all have strong zoning.
Superman, Deathstroke, Cyborg, Aquaman, Black Adam
I’m seeing a trend here.
NRS likes making projectiles strong.
Injustice Fb/K values.
DeathStroke
-Quickfire: 18
-Low Shot: 18
-Machine Gun: 8
Superman
-Heat Vision: 15
-Heat Zap: 8
Aquaman
-Trident Toss: 10
Cyborg
-Nova Blaster: 13
Black Adam:
-Lightning Strike: 10
Tested on Batman (I believe however that everyone has the same life in IGAU). This should cover most of the top tiers (based on PL and REO’s tier list).
Seven! See below for details.
I was thinking about Marvel 2 as well, trying to decide what the “standard” fireball even is in that game. I’m really not sure what would make for a fair comparison to other games, simply because (to me) it seems like so much of Marvel 2 revolves around being able to confirm stray hits into bigger damage. (Air-blocking too, but that’s nothing that any of the other fighting games in this thread haven’t had too.)
For example, my very first thought was just to use naked HVB. More often than not, though, there’s going to be something coming before and/or after it. St.hp or grenades are often your lead-in, and AHVB will follow whenever possible… and to make matters worse, AHVB follows AHVB whenever possible! Jump-back hp is a regular staple of Cable’s humble arsenal too, but alone it doesn’t accurately represent where Cable gets his power from. And this is all without even getting into how drones fit into the picture.
With Spiral, I think you need to start talking about drones. Knives follow drones and drones follow knives, but you never know when things are actually going to start hitting, and a lot of it isn’t going to combo together anyway, but a lot of it can force you to block the next thing, and she’s kinda supposed to get a few normals in there too if the opponent ever gets hit within reach, right? And I think calling her a serious contender in the game’s late-era is a bit of a stretch anyway.
Moves like Sent rocket punch, Mag disruptor, and Storm tornado have their uses but they aren’t really tools that any of them actually build their gameplans around.
Storm builds herself meter (and runs away) well enough that random hails are actually a valid tactic, but she doesn’t get to do them so much that it counts as a projectile in my mind. And random hails are sort of the consummate little monkey wrench in the gears, too, if you’re trying to have a straightforward conversation about how Marvel 2 works.
I know there’s the Domination 101 article that brings up how the role of assists in Marvel 2’s neutral game is in many ways analogous to that of the SF fireball, but I think that including DP assists opens up a whole slew of even more “out there” considerations.
Is drones assist the Marvel 2 fireball?
DO YOU SEE WHY I CAN’T SLEEP AT NIGHT??! THIS STUFF IS IMPORTANT.
I’m not just all talk, though! I couldn’t decide what to test, so I tested… everything.
Spoiler
This is all done against Cable (who has the “normal” health modifier), KO’ed from full life. Default damage settings, of course. Assume that all hits of an attack connect in all cases unless I have specifically noted otherwise.
Warning:
oh my heavens is this game ever ridiculous
regenerating health does not even make up for how ridiculous
you don’t even know how ridiculous
or do you want to know
because i’ll show you
right now
okay here we gooooo!!!
Cable st.hp (the gunshots) = 7 times
- fully mashed to 4 hits
Cable j.hp (gunshot) = 28 times
- this one hit actually deals slightly more damage than one hit of st.hp
Cable lp HVB = 12 times
- air and ground version are both 4 hits, and the deal same total damage
- with ground version, about half the time it only does 3 for no good reason
- for air version, when opponent is moving vertically, I could NOT consistently time it to give me all 4 hits
Cable hp HVB = 10 times
- air and ground version are both 8 hits, and the deal same total damage
- ground version occasionally only does 7 or even 5 for no good reason
- with air version, you are very unlikely to get in all 8 hits if opponent is moving vertically, but you CAN consistently get all 8 with the correct timing
Cable grenade, hp HVB = 6 times
- this includes all 8 hits for hp HVB
- all versions of grenade deal same damage, whether lk or hk, ground or air
Cable st.hp xx hp HVB = 5 times
- st.hp fully mashed
- all 8 hits for hp HVB
Sent rocket punch = 7 times
- all versions deal same damage, whether lp or hp, ground or air
Sent rocket punch assist is the same as the lp version.
Sent lk drones = 7 times
Sent drones assist is the same as the lk version.
Sent st.hp & cr.hp (mouthbeam) = usually from 12 to 17 times
- reeeally random as to whether it hits once or twice
Oh man. And people say that good blocking is important in this game because of all the mixups. How about make sure you don’t get hit by random projectiles!!!
Storm lk horizontal typhoon = 12 times (almost 11)
- ground version and air version deal the same damage
Storm hk horizontal typhoon = 10 times
- ground version and air version deal the same damage
Storm horizontal typhoon assist is the same as the hk version.
Storm vertical typhoon = 7 times
- all versions deal same damage, whether lk or hk, ground or air
- supposed to be 6 hits apiece, but often only does 5 for no good reason
Mag lp disruptor = 12 times
- ground version and air version deal the same damage
Mag hp disruptor = 9 times
- ground version and air version deal the same damage
Mag disruptor assist is the same as the hp version.
Cyke optic blast = 17
- all versions deal same damage, whether lk or hk, ground or air
- supposed to be one hit only, but once in a blue moon it hits twice for no good reason
Cyke st.hp & cr.hp (the blob shot) = 13 (almost 12)
- remember this thing is slow as all heck, though!
Spiral knife = 42 individual knives
- she summons 6 at a time, but you throw them 1 at a time and you won’t be comboing more than 2 of them together without something else hitting in between
Doom fat beam = 12
- all versions deal same damage, whether lk or hk, ground or air
Doom photon rays = 29 individual rays
- all versions deal the same damage, whether lp or hp, ground or air
- he throws out a whole mess of them but you’ll usually only get caught by 2 or maybe 3 at a time
Doom rocks assist from full screen = usually around 14
- the number of hits you get out of this thing varies A LOT
Strider ouroboros orb = 90 or 100 invidual orbs
Blackheart pillar assist = 9 (almost 8)
Blackheart j.hp (imps) = 39 individual imps
- he throws out 3 imps at a time in a loose spread
- I waited in between hits to allow each imp to deal its full damage
- these imps cling on for a couple of extra seconds after hitting, and each one deals two ticks of extra damage afterward
- if you summon any new imps, the clinging imps will immediately vanish and not deal any additional damage
Blackheart j.hk (imps) = 43 individual imps
- he throws out 5 imps at a time in a tight spread
- these imps don’t deal any extra damage while clinging on, it’s just a visual effect
… aaaand just for fun:
Ryu ground fireball = 12
- lp and hp versions deal the same damage
Ryu air fireball = 11
- lp and hp versions deal the same damage
SF4
16 in vanilla SF4 (almost 15)
18 in SSF4
18 in AE
16 in v2012 (almost 15)
All Ryu-on-Ryu crime.
I’m looking for those bonus marks 'cause you know I did that extra homework.
MvC3 & UMvC3
Heck year!!!
KO conditions: no blocking, Ryu only, Final Destination.
(for vanilla)
Morrigan soul fist = 15
(for Ultimate)
Morrigan soul fist = 12
Soul fist with astral = 7
Soul fist in XF3 = 8
Soul fist with astral in XF3 = 4
(The rest of these are identical between vanilla and Ultimate.)
Doom missiles assist = 11
Doom beam assist = 10
Sent drones assist = 8
Dorm pillar = 9
Zero L and M hadangeki = 15
Zero H hadangeki = 10
Zero buster level 1 = 25
Zero buster level 2 = 15
Zero buster level 3 = 10
Joe voomerang uncharged = 15
Dark Phoenix’s tiny little fireballs that come out of her normals = 42
… and last but not least,
oh you know you wanna know:
Ryu true blue fireball = 10
These numbers are absoluuutely Ryu-diculous!
Skullgirls Fb/K values (v1.01 Slightly Different Edition).
What complicates things is that Skullgirls has different health and damage levels depending on team size, so I’m doing values for solo, duo and trio. Happily, Mike_Z is against using different health levels per character.
First up on point is Peacock, who is basically Cable with a teleport. For her, I’m using her BANG BANG BANG! ( :qcf:+:hp:, :hp:, :hp: ) since, next to bombs that’s the move she’s bound to be tossing out, especially since she can convert it to damage via her super. I’m counting each 3 shot sequence as one “fireball” as getting hit by the first shot combos into the rest (decimal values mean that the character died before all three could hit).
Solo vs Solo - 13.33
Solo vs Duo - 10
Solo vs Trio - 9
Duo vs Solo - 22
Duo vs Duo - 13.66
Duo vs Trio - 10.66
Trio vs Solo - 27.66
Trio vs Duo - 15.66
Trio vs Trio - 12.33
Off course, if we take from @deadfrog 's notes on MvC2, then the real fireball of the game is Double’s M Horner Bomber assist ( :dp:+:mp: on custom assist selection). The thing about Bomber (or, the butt) however is that it can also be used as a DP assist, dealing 3 hits from up close. For this exercise then, I’m counting Fb/K values from both max distance (1 hit) and close up (3 hits). I’d do two hits, but I’m lazy as fuck.
Max distance (1 hit)
Duo vs Solo - 26
Duo vs Duo - 16
Duo vs Trio - 13
Trio vs Solo - 34
Trio vs Duo - 19
Trio vs Trio - 15
Close up (all 3 hits)
Duo vs Solo - 13
Duo vs Duo - 8
Duo vs Trio - 6.33
Trio vs Solo - 17
Trio vs Duo - 9.33
Trio vs Trio - 7.33
ah i wish i had a console, i want to go check mvc1 vs mvc2 megaman jump busters. the ground one doesnt matter because it does 12 damage instead of 20 (and the air one has no landing recovery so you never ever ever ever do the ground one). assuming no guts it would kill in 7.2 (so 8) because 144/20, but there is guts in mvc2.
of course this doesn’t really matter in practice because one megaman buster can combo into drones which combos into a rockball which combos into another jump buster which combos into a 2nd hit of the rockball so it takes off like 40% but whatever
dammit why did i play this shitty character
this is why!!!
i mean yeah there’s that and the meter gain for is sick for the cable i have 2nd but still i could’ve just spent all that time that i spent fighting through 3-7 and 2-8 matchups with all kinds of weird gimmicks playing mags or storm or commando or cyke.
maybe i wouldve placed in an mvc2 tournament ever
Bumping because I want to know if anyone’s tried to do this for any of the newer games out now (KI, UNIEL, etc.)
FB/K values for Ky in Xrd. Values done vs. Sol in versus mode.
No glyphs:
Ground normal Stun Edge = 20
Gound charge Stun Edge = 12
Air Stun Edge = 18
With glyphs:
Ground normal Stun Edge = 15
Ground charge Stun Edge = 7
Air Stun Edge = 18
Interesting fact is that the projectiles do alot of damage until the lifebar is flashing red where damage is then scaled in a big way. @tataki for Sol, guts means that he only takes .39% damage at less than 10% life right?
The guts data is on the DL wiki.
TMNT TF tested on Leo
Leo lightning cutter = 9
Raph Jamboree = 9
Don Ground Claw = 9
Mike Dragon Breath = 9
Armagon braaaaaaahhhhh = 9
Wingnut Moonbuster - LP = 10, HP = 8
Chromedome Chromespark - LP = 15, Hp = 9
The two 9 ones I tested on block were both 47, but the guts system means instead of 1-2 fireballs being in the last stage of guts, it’s something like 11-12 while blocking.
tested some in melty blood actress again current code. About the mechanics of the game
Spoiler
-you can’t kill with chip damange in melty blood. The last hit have to connect
-projectyles generally don’t “eat each other”. You can’t anulate a projectyle using yours
-the exceptions can be absorved by any normal/special move anyway (like aoko orbs)
-you can airblock them. But they can hit you during jump/super jump/dash foward activation pretty easily
-you can parry (ex guard) them, but you and the projectyle will be locked in the animation for more time, while the opponent will be free to move. Trying to parry a multiple hit projectyle is a really bad idea…
-everything do more damange if the opponent is crouched and less if they are in the air. Those numbers are with the opponent standing
-counter hits/ air counter hits deals more hitstun, creating opportunity for combos
H aoko 214x/ H warc 236x
-13 to kill
-39 for breaking the guardbar
-100 to take all life away with chip
Spoiler
-they are repuuken style projectyle that can’t be ducked under at all, but can be jumped over even from close
-version with weak attack activates and recovers quickly, but travels slow
-version with strong attack activates and recovers slow, but travels fast
-both versions do the same damange
-if you use the slow version from fullscreen, you will have time to put another one in the screen before the first make contact with the oponent
F aoko/F white len 236x
-13 to kill
-81 for breaking the guardbar
-102 to take all life away with chip
Spoiler
-they are standarth “hadouken” style projectyles. Can’t be jumped over from close. But some chars have attacks that can duck under it.
-both versions do the same damange
-F aoko can hold the button to delay it. If fully charged, it becomes bigger and do 80% more damange than the regular.
-F len have a air version, same damange than the regular
My little rant about 3s/alpha
Spoiler
I don’t agree that zooning is weak in 3s. But for sure, meter dependant.
Ryu’s EX hadouken is the exact oposite for example…good damange, good travel speed, good recovery speed, sweet sweet activation speed. It completely changes his neutral game.
It’s not like you need to have it and use it all the time. From using once in a while (threatening), it will already have a imense potential to change opponents behavior. But I agree that to play “ST style” during all the match means to give up denjin unblockables/stun from okizeme/blocked dp and shin shoryuken massive damange from combos/reversals.
Remmy case is similar. He have a whide array of antiairs, and he got a lot of extra damange from cornering the opponent. His optimal in neutral will be as a zooner that incite the opponent to try risk things like special moves or jumps…but to give it his 100%, he desperately needs meter for EX low sonic boom.
Alpha 3 is in the same tone. There’s the prorate in fireballs proportional to the distance like people said, but theres more. You can airblock them. You can airblock shoryukens too if they aren’t from point blank. This severely limit the use as a zooning tool, even if they have ok damange/revovery/travel speed and can kill with chip.
But they have another use there, they become the strongest guardbreaking tool if you have meter for custom combos.
It happens that you can cancel a lot of normals on whiff into fireballs and you start the first round with fullmeter too, so they aren’t bad at all…
The problem with using EX hadou in 3S is when you’re using Denjin and are saving the bar for denjin oki shenanigans.
you are right. That’s why i said that to be able to use ex hadouken at any moment means giving up denjin and shin shory. This is, picking up shinkuu hadouken as your super art, so you can stock way more meter and won’t have much reason to not expend it on exes.
Giving a look at kof
94
-both weak and strong versions do the same damange and stun.
-all characters get stuned at each 3 fireballs
-they can kill at 10 fireballs. Chars with more hp dies at the 11th. Chars with less hp at 9th.
-time out before killing with chip damange rolf. Stoped at 45 fireballs, taking a little less than 3/5 of the lifebar away. But i think the game have something akin to “guts”, so it can’t be trusted.
-no guardbar to be breaked
95 stayed the same
96
-generally, weak version kills at 10, strong at 9. This includes iori, krauser, king, and even short range projectyles like ryo, robert, yuri, terry
-the short ranges are generally compensated with the projectyle size, activation speed and frame advantage
-some few short range have noticeable bigger damange. Andy can kill with 7 projectyles (strong version)
-none of them do the crazy stun that was the norm in 94-95. In all the tests the opponent died before getting stunned
-this time there is a guard bar. Strong version of projectyles generally guard break around 17-18.
98 (vanilla)
-the majority can kill at 10-11 with the strong version, 12-13 with weak version. This includes andy.
-the majority of projectyles kills before stunning
-saisyu, ex terry, ex andy, king can stun the opponent with 10 projectyles, don’t matter the version
-ex kyo and iori can stun with 6 projectyles, don’t matter the version
-the hidden stun bar recover pretty fast, it’s kind of hard to get it done in real matches using projectyles only
-i still haven’t tested enought, but looks like the number to guardbreak varies wildly in the cast