Plus lower hit stun and travelling speed for non EX fireballs were also part of the issue. Parry is like 30 percent of the issue and the rest of the actual properties of the fireballs. They do no chip damage either. Strengthened properties of the fireballs would have kept them pretty strong even with parry.
I haven’t seen frame data across multiple games but my perception is that the recovery time on fireballs is bigger in 3s too.
A huge gripe I have with 3s comes from how bad fireballs are.
Fireballs are not overall worse in SF4 just because of the existence of a focus attack but for many other reasons as well. Worse damage, worse frames, travel speed, the existence of moves that go through fireballs and punish them – some even on pure reaction etc. etc.
I remember that at max range against a crouching Cammy, Ryu’s c.mk xx hadouken is punishable by her ultra/ex-drill ON HIT.
the fireball argument with 3s is kinda dumb I think. it’s clear it was designed without a long range projectile game being one of the goals. one thing would not “fix” it. giving fireballs more damage and speed and less recovery probably wouldn’t change the nature of the game all that much. removing parry wouldn’t make fireball zoning amazing.
it’s like going to ST and saying “man I wish this game had a more developed high/low mixup game.” that’s just not the design of the game or how it flows.
I guess what I’m getting at is that if you say “my gripe with 3s is the fireballs being bad” you probably just don’t like the game on the big picture. 3s isn’t “ST with crappy fireballs and a parry.” it’s like complaining that Tekken doesn’t have a developed long range fireball zoning game. it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.
If the FA in SFIV had the same properties as parries from SF3, the zoning game would break down. FA’s due to the huge recovery from the dash portion limits their effective use, as in most cases, you end up at a disadvantage compared to the opponent. Not to mention the armor’s 1 hit limit and the risk of losing gray health limits one from abusing it.
I would say in the hands of a deadly foe, parries are way overpowered than FA.
They should have made it so one couldn’t parry projectiles in SF3, but then your faced with Denjin Hadouken.
Dude. Not having a go at you. But its an interesting scenario, where the risk vs reward is out of whack. Blocking the projectile should be rewarded more highly than being hit by the projectile, at full screen.
I didn’t say fireballs were worse in SF4. In fact I’m saying the opposite, in relation to SF3.
The damage alone is interesting, but the most practical aspect is how hard it is to avoid projectiles in a given game. Recent games’ projectiles have such small hitboxes on projectiles that it becomes really hard to actually land on them. The speed is also important: the higher the speed, the more it looks - and can be used - like a poke instead of just a zoning tool from a distance.
Some trivia: Ryu’s fierce hadouken has a bigger hitbox in ST, but it suddenly gets smaller as it approaches full screen.
They are still worse compared to SF2.
“Zoning effectiveness” is kinda hard to quantify. But by playing the games you can somewhat feel what’s going on. For every extra movement option you have in airdashers, you also have new properties for projectiles to keep them useful. Like shooting in different directions instead of just horizontal or stuff that simply stay on the screen for a while without moving.
Not to mention how they function with other moves, a-la the Fireball-Dragonpunch combination. Like, F-Aoko’s 236A doesn’t actually zone you out but it does prevent you from setting up or charging super meter from far away, forcing you to come to her and deal with the orbs she puts around her. So the move by itself is not very useful, but within the scenarios you create with other moves it suddenly become a good tool.
Of course.
3S Ryu is my least favourite version of Ryu (well, maybe aside from SvC but I don’t like anyone in that game) because he can’t zone effectively. I think it’s probably the only version of SF where I prefer Ken over Ryu. I think in Alpha 2 I’m 50/50 between Ken and Ryu.
The best part is that you are criticizing games that you alredy admitted that you don’t play.
Tell any GG player that Testament, Dizzy or Venome zoning is not effective, or any BB player that v13/lambda 11 zoning is weak.
He didn’t mention any game by name so aren’t you a bit too jumpy?
No, he is implying that the zoning game on new games is weaker than old ones, i am just given 2 examples (of games that i play) where is just not the case.
Why not just disagree with the guy and provide examples rather than flag his post (troll? really?) and get all snippy?
Not to mention that, for him, the defining characteristic of the SFIV series is that there was a time when he saw a guy using a fierce DP to punish a random Tatsu but then the opponent got up during the recovery of the DP and punished him for it.
So that’s it, SFIV is a game that punishes you for hitting people with DP, apparently. Or not, I don’t know, it’s all very confusing.
But that DID happened, I promise you guys! A lot of people saw that too, but it’s not like anyone can recreate that and record it, of course.
But it’s true, so SFIV sucks because of that.
1st) Do you have seen the amount of stupid bullshit and/or missinformation that os_BR usually post? Combine that with his usual hate against anything that is not ST or HF whatever is his old game of preference.
2nd) Is like you forgot how i usually post here on SRK 
I tought we were talking about REAL fighting games here… :lol:
SF1 hadouken is the king of projectile damage.
Actually no, SF1 Tiger Shot is. Sagat’s Tiger Shot does 25-30% on block and 60-70% on hit.