anyone tested the running properties of guy besides using it for pressure points? I"m not sure if this was posted or if someone made a string as to which moves guy’s run’s evade certain moves. You can avoid shoto’s spinning kick (forgot the name tatsu w/e) just buy running, it works on ryu, akuma, not sure on ken. Ex run with the right distance and timed kick can avoid fireball ultras and blanka aa ultra, not sure though coz i think it still has that “freeze frame” if your too close to him when he does it and get you get it.
Hey… I think we may have played yesterday… or it could just be some guy with the same name/tag. Anyway, the run properties are interesting for tatsu but I really don’t see the benefit as running under makes you lose the opportunity to actually punish a blocked tatsu (U2) or crouched (which I usually punish with c.HP).
as of now i’m using cr.lp’s / cr.lk’s > to many different pressure mixups…
tick throws
cr.mp > lp elbow flip
target combo > run stop
if standing , bushin combo
even empty jump mp.elbow flip or fp.elbow flip for mind games
that’s my fight plan for pressure
um, fellas, flipping as a part of your pressure string is a very bad idea 99% of the time. i notice that a lot of people in this thread are listing that as a good way to end a pressure string. it can be seen fairly easily, and just about every character can punish Guy for doing it. i believe my friend JasonL posted a list with most characters on it and what they could do to it.
also, i’m not sure what to think on the frames of run-stop pressure string, to be honest. it can be punished with reversal SPD/Storm Hammer(old name for T. Hawk grab in ST, not sure what it is called in SSF4) or anything of the like, so most likely, it does put him at -2. but, you CAN safely use lp. Hozanto against Zangief and T. Hawk. the block string cr.lp x2 > st.mp > st.fp > lp Hozanto is a legitimate block string that puts you far enough away from all of their reversal grabs. that combo, when done correctly, can not be interrupted.
during the poke game, guy’s st. mk puts the opponent outside of sweep distance and makes 'em wanna jump if it stuffs them a few times - especially if they’re getting backed up against a wall
Guy does have a (crappy) vortex off run slide.
Against most characters it’s a natural safe jump setup if you jump straight up off a point blank slide (if you hit it late you’ll get up a bit earlier and have to wait a few frames). From there you can do jump roundhouse (easiest) or jump mk (very very tight) and followup into another run slide combo. You can also mix it up by delaying the jump attack by a couple of frames to purposely whiff(you’ll have to train them to expect the jump in, but it’s not that hard since the j.rh is incredibly deceptive. Then you can go directly into a low attack to run slide or forward throw to his other safe jump setup).
If they back dash, you can hit them with run slide if you’re on the ball and repeat until you get to the corner. When you hit the corner with the slide, you’ll cross them up, but safe jump setup is still intact so you can do jump back rh for more damage or jump of the wall elbow, etc etc.
Of course, this won’t work on 3 frame reversals and it is by no means as good as akuma’s.
yeah i noticed this as well. at times, it doesnt even seem to hit. i’m definitely within range, but the elbow whiffs anyway and i get grabbed when i land.
That’s true. But it still has its uses in an ideal situation. Players are humans after all so under extreme pressure, the flip out of nowhere might be incredibly golden. Then again, we’ll have to see.
I don’t think Bushin Flip is totally useless in blockstrings, but you can’t just throw it out whenever you want. They should be conditioned to worry about counterhit (cr.mp xx LP Hozanto or cr.lp, delayed target combo for example) and run stop setups first since those are safer. Once you have them watching out for those, it’s easier to catch them off guard with a Bushin Flip. One thing to keep in mind is that, even though crouching against the Bushin Flip is a safe bet since you can’t be grabbed this way, if they block the Elbow Drop crouching you are at less of a disadvantage which allows you to continue pressuring them.
well, that’s why i put 99% of the time it was bad. if you condition a player not to look for it, and you use it sparingly, it can be good. i do agree with that.
The problem is that your opponent can easily anti-air the elbow on reaction, even if you’ve “conditioned” him to block high. Contrary to what people keep saying, it’s easily stuffed because the flip is so slow in this game and the hitbox on it is (seemingly) not that great. In alpha, not only was the flip faster, but the elbow hit as an overhead and had a FAT hitbox that allowed you to crossup with it reliably not to mention combo after it. Considering that even in those games it was nowhere near abusable, what’s the point of trying it in SSF4?
And unless I have some meter, I rarely try to follow up blocked jump ins that are anything less than a guaranteed blocked jab on landing. Since it’s difficult to link a cr.jab on hit, I’d wager you’re at best even on a blocked elbow from crouch.
I think that’s the picture that’s starting to develop here. In older games, Guy could inspire fear up close because his opponents would have to skillfully pick the hole in his barrage. We all know that sublety and precision are not things that SF4 handles well. The aggressor will always be at a disadvantage until they change the fundamental mechanics of the game.
My other problem with the Bushin Flip is it nearly always kills your momentum, which is hard to attain in this game. I think you’re right; you’re better off sticking with more reliable strings instead of ending in Bushin Flip.
Y’all are right only end a combo with bushin flip to get outta corners and such. Or if your opponent is clueless and you haven’t bushin bombed him yet. Only use the bushin flip elbow to stop a flip or at least us rarely. It’s hard to combo is slow and just sux. The down mp elbow on the other hand if spaced and timed right will combo stuff aa normals sumo splashes and sometimes the allmighty dp. And is great for faking crossups. Use it with block strings and fake outs to keep pressure on your opponent. If your on the defensive with guy you r probably losing.
I never have a problem landing bushin flip throw after a block string. Of course I only use it once, MAYBE twice a match.
yeah, bushin flips after block strings must be used sparingly, run stop mixups , blockstrings into safe slides (cr. fk) should be mixed in as well
I believe his run stop mix up game needs to be used, but again online is a crazy beast and people are random.
Give it a month or 2 and you’ll never land a bushin flip or elbow off a block string ever again.
In strong agreement with you here. People are only getting hit by it because it’s new to them. Once they see it often, it’ll become instinctive to AA it with the easy. Unless… people find a setup for bushin flip traps similar to cammy’s hooligan trap. I wonder if that’s still in the game, I haven’t tested it yet. If there IS a setup for it, it could be better than cammy’s because the throw out of the flip can be done as a cross up. Could be an interesting thing to look at…
So i think this has been mentioned elsewhere and since we’re talking about bushin flip:
EX hurricane can be followed up with EX flip that guarentees uncrouchable Throw if they tech up. Unlike most of guys stuff this actually can be done anywhere on the screen, and while it may be a once a set gimmick it’s almost better out of the corner.
In short you do some combo ending in EX hurricane. Any of the FF chain corner combos, TC lp shoulder to EX hurricane in corner vs crouchers, and mid screen i’ve just been using TC EX hurricane. Basically the moment guy can move again you throw EX flip and if your opponent tech’s you’ll arrive at just the right time to grab him during the standing frames of his getup animation.
However the obvious flaw here is reverals, but that’s where it gets interesting.
First off i’m fairly certain that with the speed and angle guy moves at people pretty much have to either decide to not tech the knockdown, or throw the reversal, and i don’t think you have time to react. In short if you throw the EX flip after letting your opponent know you can slam him out of it, and then drop and elbow you can bait a reversal and of course do your favorite punish as they fly through the air. This needs some testing because i found this out as my comp left.
The second part is i’m 90% positive i’m managed to time the followup to actually throw ryu out of a reversal DP. The obvious problem is that if you hit punch then you will not get the tech grab if they didn’t reversal, but what it might mean is that guy’s basically got a safe jump option off of his EX flip. Meaning if they do nothing or tech, you just land close to them ready to continue pressure. If they reversal you score the grab. This especially needs more testing and is damn hard to duplicate reliably with training.
I’m also looking into if at certain spacings you can substitute a normal flip, but so far i don’t think so, and i’m pretty sure i recall reading in one of the threads someone else testing this and coming up with the same answer.
Either way point is if you have 2 meters, or more likely just landed EX hurricane(i still need to test if it spaces right off of reversal Exhurricane as well) it’s at the very least a gimmick worth throwing out sparingly, but there’s a slight chance there’s more to this.
Edit: Ok more complicated than i thought. Works off of any shoulder, medium or EX hurricane, his slide, both his sweeps, and forward throw reliably.
So far i can’t get it on light or heavy hurricane at all, his back throw(although i’d swear i landed it once), and ninja sickle(although i think that can be combo’d to slide, which if it leaves them in the same knockdown state should mean you can do it anyways).
You can also do it off of any successful bushin throw. Which basically means if you land it once you can go for the second mixup right there if you have the meter.
MIGHT be doable off of either FF chain ending. The timing seems right, but i’m not really sure how to test it since if i leave the AI on crouch i can’t really land the combo, and i’m not sure if i’m doing playback right.
Finally while the timing varies greatly on all of these it sure as hell looks like you might be able to use non ex flips for some of these setups. Mostly ones that leave the opponent far away since even the lp one tends to cross up, and it doesn’t matter too much since all the close setups can probably be reversed on reaction. Again if anyone with skill wants to either set up a training dummy to test some reversal counters, or get a friend to help that would be much appreciated.
Final edit for now: After lots of scientific testing(having ryu spam the hell out of FP SRK on playback) i have a few times successfully grabbed ryu out of the reversal uppercut. I’m almost positive the spacing was no different, but it’s hard to be consistent with my lousy as hell and unreliable method. If it isn’t just spacing i think the timing is very very tight because i know i traded or just flat out got beat on a bunch of them.
From my experience against top players round here you might as well not bother finishing any blockstring with Bushin Flip Throw. That shit either gets AA’d or they just firmly hold d/b. I throw it out maybe once in 5 games to catch them off-guard… which still isn’t a guarantee that it’ll hit.
Run-Stop pressure strings work best.