POKKEN Official Pokemon Fighter Made By Bandai Namco

@Tiberious you’re actually pretty right. Except it’s not select characters, it’s the entire game really.

Defense is not strong Enough. Unblockables, RPS wake up games unlike other fighters (not even MKX; they have armour attacks on wake up for that), long-ranged grabs that can be canceled to remove any commitment attached and even comboed into, attacks that rip through the whole triangle system (shadow mewtwo’s A --> X I think, chandelure overheat) and is safe on block, bunch of safe attacks on block that leads into more guessing games due to how weak defense is, and more stuff that I can’t think off the top of my head.

All it takes is for you to guess wrong one time to get punished and have the momentum shifted completely in your opponent’s favor with you being dug further down the hole.

That’s pretty much it.

I mean, look at the frame data. Since, outside of one outlier, the fastest attacks are 9 frame startup, everything that is -8 to 0 on block can only be punished with a guess. Go through the characters and just see how safe most moves really are on block.

To show why this is a problem, just look at some of the other properties on moves. Counter-Pierce and Counter-flagged non CA (i.e. X+A) attacks abound, and in some cases, there are cancels that allow going from a non-Piercing move into a Piercing one, guaranteeing a hit on CA (since CADC isn’t instant, and an immediate return to neutral), taking CA out of the equation entirely.

For example, when (since it’s not if) Blaziken gets in on you and gets a single blocked 6A off, you have no choice but to eat: 1) chip damage from 6A all day until guard crush and the combo after it, 2) a throw, or 3) an unblocked 6A into whatever he wants.
It’s -8, meaning it can’t be thrown on block (it’s also airborne on startup, so grabs are doubly out).
It’s 13-frame startup, meaning getting away isn’t possible, nor is a strong attack to knock him out of it.
It can cancel into a Pierce on reaction, so you can’t CA.
It’s an A-button attack, meaning it beats Y-button attacks.

All you can do is continue to hold block and pray he screws up a 6A->HoldX command so the non-charged Pierce cancel can be thrown on block before he just throws you or continues to bash on your block until it breaks and gives him the chip plus a followup combo.

Now, go ahead and look at Mewtwo’s frame data. See how overwhelmingly punishable he is? All you have to do to beat a Mewtwo is block attacks and punish them. He’s that free to defense. Originally, to make up for those shortcomings, he had a Homing attack that has a good hitbox, and was spaced out enough in hits where a CA was a risky proposition, because it had to be timed well to hit him. He had strong mixup options off a slow-startup move to make opponents guess.

He had slow meter build, plus the fact that he lost meter performing some attacks. Again, that was mostly balanced by the fact that when he’s in Burst mode, especially in Duel phase, he made an opponent act in a very controlled way. A Mega Mewtwo in close will either go for a grab or BA (which is also a grab), both of which can be foiled by jumping. Any Mewtwo player will understand this, and use that to force an air-to-air situation for free damage. If they pop Burst (which is a likely scenario on reaction), both players using BA at the same time just whiffed each other, usually.

But now? The homing attack was nerfed to be braindead-easy to CA, he’s no longer even meter-neutral after landing moves that use meter, mixup options went to hell, because back-Y in Field can’t be cancelled early enough, and to top it all off, BA vs. BA with him is an auto-lose for him, since his invulnerability has been reduced to comedic levels. He got one completely useless concession in that a move that drained the opponent’s meter on hit drains an insignificant amount more (but still not enough to be easily noticeable. It’s not even Gengar-level draining). There were a grand total of zero frame data improvements to cover the weaknesses he always had and are being exposed even more now.

In short, every strength he had was removed, and all his weaknesses remain.

Before the patch, I would’ve put Mewtwo at lower top-tier. Now? Well, let me put it this way: Not since Sean has a character been so thoroughly destroyed by nerfs… and all because of players whining because they couldn’t beat him without using their R button for anything beyond Burst.

Darkrai will be joining Pokken’s roster in Japanese Arcades:

So he’ll probably be joining the console release soon as well. A previous rumor suggests we may be getting two more playable mons along with Darkrai, but we’ll see.

If I’m not mistaken, they said that the other two will be Scizor and Empoleon.

STILL CANT GET HITMONLEE OR EVEN HITMONCHAN THO :mad:

Darkrai AND Scizor? My two favorite Pokemon?!

…I’m gonna have to buy this game again.

what? am i the only one watching the Evo Pokken Tourny here?

Started catching up on the stream a few hours ago. Saw a Japanese Braixen at the start that was pulling crap like i’d never seen! Sunny day mid-combo?! Amazing.

I hope we get a bit more character variety at the business end of things, but it’s gonna be great anyway. The Dreamhack Austin and Apex finals were damned spectacular!

I also noticed a bunch of people using Pro controllers. I wasn’t aware that was allowed, as even when they’re plugged in they’re relying on bluetooth for comms. At a stretch i hope that sticks are allowed in future events, it’s the only way i can play this thing.

I hope a Blaziken can put on a show at Evo this year, he’s a very fun character but seems to struggle more than any other in comps.

So I came here hoping to find frame data and the like.

Found some of what I need, but why isn’t there an official section on SRK?

Seriously, they still have USFIV up there along with Injustice 1, All-Stars, and SFxT…but nothing on Pokken?

I hope it’s not due to bias: It’s already at major events and pulled over 1k registered at EVO this year, and people love it and it’s being pushed very hard…just except the awesomeness and give us a place to discuss strategy.

Pokemon Nationals and EVO, and also the Darkrai and potential Empoleon and Scizor (and unique abilities?) future DLC brought me back into the game, and I’m a Blaziken main…with no secondaries…as hard as I try, I can’t find one I want to play. It’s my goal to get decent with Blaziken, but I unfortunately lost my buddy who was hype as balls for the game like myself to the dreaded ‘game is too simple, like Smash’ mentality and since he’s drowning himself in SFV I have no other people to face in person. I may have to play online…not excited about that, but oh well.

Anyone here a Gengar main? I feel like I see no one playing him or Charizard for some odd reason.

Also, how much information has actually been broken down?

Go here if you want in-depth Pokken discussion
http://pokkenarena.boards.net/forum

@ForsakenM~ My nigga when we gonna play some UNS again?

No offense, but that place seems kinda dead from what I checked out, although that Frame Data is very useful.

I haven’t been there in a couple of months so I don’t know how active it is. If it’s dead that doesn’t surprise. Most of the board were made up of Smash players making the transition to this game. They probably went back to Smash.

So, having played for a while now, here’s what I would change if I were in control of balancing for v1.4:

System:

  • Overall reduction of shield health.
  • Shields may only take up to 50% damage in any one true block string. Any shield damage beyond 50% of overall shield health is ignored.

Changes are meant to prevent inescapable one-touch Guard Crush setups, but also reduce over-reliance on guard at the same time.

Blaziken:

  • Overhaul the Blaze Kick to Flare Blitz string in the following way:
  • Raise health costs for Enhanced Blaze Kick and Enhanced Flare Blitz.
  • 6[A][X]: No changes.
  • 6A[X]: Remove Pierce, lower blockstun to make it punishable.
  • 6[A]X: Remove Pierce.
  • 6AX: Remove Pierce.
  • Lower health costs for Enhanced versions of Brave Bird, Sky Uppercut and Heat Wave.

These changes would encourage much less reliance on getting in close and becoming ‘BlazeKicken’ for free damage. Blaziken seemingly was meant to be high risk, high reward, but Blaze Kick and Flare Blitz don’t follow that philosophy. These changes would bring those moves in line with the rest.

Braixen:

  • Moving Y buttons slow movement speed to 80% of normal while casting fireballs.
  • Lower top of hitbox on Counter Attack.

Simple changes here. Braixen already has advantages the rest of the cast doesn’t, such as canceling into Supports, so he shouldn’t also be able to run at full speed while throwing stuff at you. CA change is to make getting above it a little easier.

Chandelure:

  • Remove Pierce on all A button attacks when canceled into.
  • Raise bottom of 8Y hitbox to whiff on all standing characters.
  • Obvious Hex debuff glitch fix is obvious.

Being a zoning character should mean being scared of your opponent in close, but Chandelure really doesn’t have to worry too much at present. Shutting down successful CA guess with simple mashed buttons is a little extreme. 8Y is a godly anti-air attack, and should remain that way, but not while covering grounded opponents as well.

Charizard:

  • Cap repeats of flight stance moves canceled back into flight stance at 5.
  • Lower top of Seismic Toss grab box.
  • Shorten duration of Fire Punch Counter properties.
  • Lengthen recovery on j.X slightly.

Here’s an interesting one. Remaining airborne indefinitely is kinda breaking, but it needs to balance with mobility. Setting a cap on the number of times flight ‘stance’ can be returned to in any one string keeps the same combo potential, but lets the defender have a specific point where he will be rewarded for his patience. At present, Fire Punch is a “Don’t attack me ever” threat, and needs toned down slightly. Seismic Toss, for its damage, is surprisingly easy to land in tick setups, and this change would make it a little more escapable.

Garchomp:

  • Shorten Stone Edge Counter duration.
  • Lower top of Sand Tomb grab box.
  • Remove ‘Soft Hits’ from Dig.

When the attack portion of Stone Edge took forever and a day to come out, having Counter properties as long as it does made sense; now, it’s a little too much.Sand Tomb, much like Seismic Toss above, is almost a guaranteed tick throw setup. Dig changes are to ensure that making the correct move (i.e. getting a hit) doesn’t get punished for no reason.

Gardevoir:

  • Allow only one motion input during Counter Attack to direct it.
  • Rework Calm Mind system:
  • Remove Pierce from all current Piercing projectiles unless spending a Calm Mind charge on them.
  • Add tracking to ForwardY in Field Phase.
  • Add Pierce to Magical Leaf in Duel Phase.
  • Add Pierce to Moonblast.
  • Change Energy Ball projectile collision mechanics:
  • If hit with an overpowering projectile, nullify without sending fragments.
  • If hit with an equal strength projectile, send fragments on manual detonation path.
  • If hit with a lower-priority projectile, current behavior (homing fragments).

This one’s big. My proposed changes would make Gardevoir a setup zoner who gets better the more she stays out, but wilts harder under pressure.
Presently, Calm Mind is only spent on 6X, and it spends all charges at once. Another issue is that Counter Pierce properties were assigned in a really silly way. Most of the changes here would be using available Calm Mind charges to augment attacks that currently Pierce to restore the ability. No Calm Mind charges, no Pierce… mostly. Currently, Duel Phase Magical Leaf takes ages to come out, and gives time to advance afterward, so this move having Pierce would be logical. Same deal with Moonblast in both phases. That neither of them do currently is, again, silly. Since these have such large windups, giving them Pierce without needing any Calm Minds stored up is a good idea.
The Energy Ball changes are also to make it interact more logically with other projectile attacks. Current behavior is rather silly: gain a Calm Mind charge, and a projectile that can’t be nullified in any traditional manner without becoming a homing set of further projectiles? What was Namco smoking, and where can I get some?
Finally, being that Gardevoir’s CA can move, has a decent AA hitbox, and leads into nasty combos, it should require committing to a movement. No more moving backward, only to tag guard on the last hit to avoid punishment.

Gengar:

  • Remove invincibility from Duel Phase 5X and 5[X] in Burst mode.

This is a single, minor change, but when weathering the storm that is Mega Gengar, any opportunity you have to put him into hitstun or punish a move shouldn’t be arbitrarily negated by ‘herp-derp-invincibility-lulz’.

Machamp:

  • Shrink hitboxes on Counter Attack slightly.

CA with Machamp is already a decent move to put fear into an opponent, but an opponent that faces down that fear shouldn’t be knocked out of the sky so easily.

Mewtwo:

  • Change Synergy cost on moves to make them meter-neutral on hit, including bonuses.
    (i.e. Hyper Beam costs the amount of Synergy as a full hit that transitions into duel Phase, Psystrike costs the same amount as gained from hitting all attacks and Just Frame opportunities plus Field transition bonus, etc.)
  • Remove ‘Soft Hits’ from Psystrike.
  • Make Fire Punch to Ice Punch a true combo on standard hit.
  • Raise Counter Attack hitbox slightly.
  • Shrink Counter Attack horizontal hitbox slightly.

With double the ‘length’ of Synergy bar than the next-longest, having changed moves that reduce this resource to be meter-negative on hit was a little too much. At the same time, having them be meter-positive was also kinda silly. So the logical ground would be to be meter-neutral at best. Since there are a number of variables to meter gain, but only one that covers loss, the loss should be equal to the maximum possible gained. For those with lesser execution, or on those questionable hits, using these moves would average out to be slightly meter-negative.
With the ‘Elemental Punches’, it’s rather silly that a move the game teaches you in the tutorial does not combo. All the other combo-type moves taught by the game do, so this is more of a fix.
Soft Hit removal is for the same reasons as Garchomp.
Counter Attack is a tossup. It has a great horizontal hitbox, but if the opponent so much as lifts a toe off the ground, it whiffs. I should hit at least about as high as Garchomp’s CA, even if it loses some non-vertical area to do so.

Pikachu:

  • Lengthen time between Counter Attack absorption and attack phases.
  • Shrink Counter Attack hitbox slightly.

More CA changes to make them less relied-upon. This one is pretty much braindead to use, so it needs a couple small nerfs.

Pikachu Libre:

  • Lower top of Electro Web hitbox.

Not much to say here. Just a little more tick grab weakening.

Sceptile:

  • Clear Leech Seed traps if Sceptile is hit.
    Either
  • Shorten duration of Detect activation window
    or
  • Detect cloud only lowers Defense on clean hit.

Sceptile is clearly a mid-range fighter, who is okay at long range, but a little better in close, but Detect is just a bit too simple to abuse to both reset distance with, and set up for more damage. Removing one of those qualities will make him a little more bearable to deal with. Secondly, no character should be rewarded for being hit, so why does Leech Seed allow this?

Shadow Mewtwo:

  • Raise Phase Shift Points on Miracle Eye Pillar hit.
  • Revert Vortex HP cost to v1.2 levels,
    BUT
  • Remove Pierce from Vortex,
    OR
  • Shorten Vortex blockstun.

This is the controversial attack. Raising the HP cost on this was more of a band-aid of the the wound than anything else, so this is what a real fix should look like. Either one of the two changes would cause it to be more of a callout move than brainless free pressure; the only difference is how the move is to be handled on defense. Removing Pierce would allow the opponent to CA it, while remaining safe on shield, but making it unsafe on shield would allow the simpler ‘Hold R’ defense to win out. My preference would be for forcing a CA to punish it. The ‘Pillar Loop’ is silly,

Suicune:

  • Increase visibility on 5X and 6X effects before attack begins.
  • Increase recovery on 8X.

Small changes here. It’s hard to see where Suicune’s aiming his water pillars in Duel Phase, and better visibility should help. 8X recovers so fast that even proper CAs sometimes get blocked, and that’s a Bad Thing.

Weavile:

  • Shorten freeze duration on Field Phase SideY ice traps.

Simply another change to prevent being rewarded on hit.

Are people even afraid of Mewtwo anymore? I mean, I know I’m not, but some people still think he’s the two of them are the only characters worth playing, but when you watch tournaments they never seem to make it to grand finals…

First off, I’m glad someone felt like using that word towards me even though I’m not black.

Secondly, I still have the drive to play offline but online just sucks balls. I keep finding silly setups and combos, but the community (especially the YT community) kills the vibe for me. You would think none of them play other fighting games sometimes, I swear.

I have been interested on getting Pokken (specially now that i see that Braixen is quite good) but the lack of a propper local vs mode without running 2 wiius is quite a turnoff.
How is the netcode?

Whoa there buddy, whoa whoa whoa!

I appreciate the time you spent on this, and I can’t begin to comment on the other changes as I know next to nothing about anyone who isn’t Blaziken, but I can tell you right now these changes would have to come with a ton of others as well.

First off, the Blaze Kick into Flare Blitz is a very big thing for Blaziken. I never used to do it until I found out how good it was and how you basically have to use it to maintain your momentum and control over a fight…heck, using it can scare your opponent, so throwing one out every now and then just for the mind games could work too. That alone means you will be using it pretty frequently, and with it costing 30 Health for the Flare Blitz cancel at least and a total of 90 at most, that is already a lot of health loss considering all the other health you will lose in combination with other enhanced moves (not to mention any hits you take and potential HJK miss damage). Raising the health cost only would be a nerf I could agree with, however in conjunction with the other nerfs I think that would be too hefty.

I like how you respect the 90 health loss by deciding that everything that is Enhanced Blaze Kick into Enhanced Flare Blitz is acceptable, because I agree you should get all that juicy goodness for the price of 90 HP. However, you want to remove the pierce from all the other versions, plus make it where 6A[X] is punishable on block. I don’t think that version needs to be punishable really, and I don’t think each version needs to lose Pierce. Not only that, but lowering the HP cost on the other Enhanced moves would not even come remotely close to balancing out the loss…so as a Blaziken player who would rather NOT see any of this change, let me tell you what I would do.

I would make it that much more of a mix-up.

Keep 6[A][X] the same as always, and leave the HP costs the same for everything, but…

Make 6[A]X only have Pierce and 6A[X] only have Armor. They would have to take both from the regular version, which means you are essentially wasting HP, but maybe they could make Flare Blitz come out a bit quicker and recover a bit quicker so that the normal version is only punishable by grab…or go crazy and give Blaziken another option by making Flare Blitz able to cancel into HJK.

Right. The whole idea is to make it stay useful, but not “herp-derp” braindead. As it stands now, every version of 6AX is both Pierce and Armor, and since 6A[X] versions are safe on block (in fact, you can’t even JUMP away from a second rep; you get tagged), it degenerates to the playstyle I’ve termed ‘BlazeKicken’.

My intent was to propose changes that made Blaziken a little less reliant on one stupid option over and over, leaving an opponent with an opportunity to make the right call (i.e., read a Blaze Kick and CA), and not get immediately blown up by an OS that even a sloth could react in time to perform.

You’ll notice I proposed a similar change to Chandelure; trying to bring the game more in line with the intent they hammer you over the head with repeatedly. He doesn’t fear CAs too hard, because he can legit Pierce you from a Y string, and if you didn’t full-charge and release after the second attack, he can even absorb it to hit you out of it (Smog has Counter properties). That’s just a little much for a character who’s meant to keep you at range.

I really need a secondary, and I kinda don’t want to wait for the new DLC for that to happen.

Man, why can’t I find another character that compels me to play them like Blaziken does?