I don’t understand how making it 3/5 makes it less random,or how it makes it better that your facing the bullshit more
wolverine and wesker are still ambigious in the 3rd match, phoenix is still an asshole the third match, and dantes normals are just as bullshit. As hard as it is you have to adapt or you lose. I understand it’s not for everyone, but thats the game we’re playing, no tournament change will change how the game plays fundamentally. This is a hard game to win at, as much as people like to complain about how easy this game is, to win consistently is hard. Dealing with wesker with haggar assist IS HARD, dealing with mag with sent assist IS HARD, dealing with wolverine derpiness IS HARD, winning 2/3 against a decent player at this game IS HARD.
Yeah at that point I can just find other games that are hard for different reasons. I just don’t agree with what makes things “hard” in this game. I personally feel like with more matches you’d get more time to adjust to the players tendencies but if people feel the same level of uncontrollable mix up factor overrules what you can learn from how the player reacts in a 3/5…then I guess. I just feel like the way the game works you don’t get to play against all of what the opponent has to offer competitively for long enough.
Even though the game is fast and whatever it just makes it boring for me because you only get one aspect of how they play their team for a 2/3 match set with no rounds. I’d rather just play games where you get to experience your opponent for a longer time than that if the game consists of using 3 different characters any way.
This is considering it’s way easier both in this game and the upcoming Ultimate to rack up high damage or just basically choose to kill one character if you want. Then on top of that having less options to keep offense off of you than in most of those games. With the game on top of that having more mix ups that you can’t react to than MVC2. It opens up way too much random momentum for 2/3 matches for me. I feel like the rawness of the game as far as dealing with mix ups and the large damage you take from those situations would be better with a longer set. When I lose a character I lose a resource to win the match and then the next character I have coming in must also deal with a mix up that will probably kill them or put them in a situation right afterwards that will definitely kill them? Then if they die I have to rely on level 3 XF (and that guy has to deal with a mix up that could get him fucked up before I even turn it on)? Then I only get 2/3 for all of that? Nah…don’t like that.
To add to your point though. Making more matches does decrease the element of randomness. That’s why those egghead statisticians and scientists always do several trials for their experiments in order to decrease the effect of randomness in their results. Marvel has that element of randomness in it which is why, as honzo stated, it’s a hard ass game to play. However, the number of matches has to be increased in order to give time for players to adjust. The type of randomness in this game is not like a dice roll, where every outcome is independent of one another. In marvel, we play human beings with tendencies, fuckups, reads, adjustments, guesses, etc. that change the outcome of every game in every match. And usually each game in a match usually has the person going for the same (or some variation of) shenanigans every time. The damage in this game means that all you need is one shenanigans per character to almost take them out. The randomness of this game can come from the huge consequence that can come from one simple mistake. Making it more matches means, that randomness is reduced. Say for example that each game in a match has a 50% (number i pulled out of my ass but is there for the sake of my example) chance of you “randomly” fucking up in any way that can lead to a loss. If you play all 3 games in a match, that means that there’s a 12.5% chance of you losing the entire match due to randomness. Now make it a best of 5 and if you end up going all the way, it goes all the way down to 3.1%. You see the numbers??? That’s the effect of randomness cut down by 75%!!! I know these numbers were pulled out of my ass, but please don’t tell me that increasing the number of matches does not reduce randomness.
So, if I do 5 trials of random intervals that no one can predict its automatically less random then the 3 trials of random intervals the no one can predict, I think they are equally random, since they will never be consistent if you can’t predict them. How do we measure the consistent rate of randomness, is the amount of fuck ups consistent in any given match, can said consequence ever be predicted based on whether or not you randomly fuck up which also can’t be predicted, or is the rate of shenangians employed ever consistent or can be consistently predicted.
So, we’re doing scientific statistical analysis based on increased trials on something in which is random, has random variables, and can never be predicted nor consistently replicated because of said randomness.
you know what I think the % of random will not reduce, I think the % of random is random no matter what.
edit: now if you think “fun” or “enjoyment” might go down well go ahead and argue your subjective viewpoint, but don’t bring statistics into something that it isn’t applicable for
mvc3 is a very unforgiving game 1 mistake can cost you 2 characters,matches can be over in 15 seconds well 15 marvel seconds lol but making it 3/5 wont really help if you
I just think at best 3/5 will give you more time to adjust to the spacings your opponent presents in battle and just make the game more interesting overall as far as seeing more of what they do with each character.
My issue overall is that if you bring it down to one match of SFIV or 3S or CVS2 or KOF13 or any other fighting game is completely better than one match of Marvel 3. I feel if you bring MVC3 to at least a 3/5 then you bring things in MVC3 to similarities of a 2/3 in the other mentioned games which is more tolerable. When a lot of people that play in these tourneys don’t get to play top people every day in the game any way it would make things more worth it as far time actually playing and what they can gather. At the higher levels of play it’ll get more time for people to create spacings and tactics for each others mix ups.
With the argument you’re bringing you might as well just say doing one match, double elim would be feasible for this game. I’m pretty sure most of the competitive community would just not play the game period if shit was one match. At least there’d be a still decent chance of keeping the other games intact with one match. Especially considering the other games basically played that way but in a team format at SBO. MVC3 would just never see people come out if it was one match.
If people had to choose between doing one match of this or one match of SFIV at a tournament…even people who don’t like SFIV would most likely just go over and play SFIV just so they don’t get scrambled out in one match twice without any round or extra match or anything for a breather and time to figure out anything obvious or lacking in coverage the other person did the last match. The only breather you get is the free mix up they’re going to get on your character if they get killed first which could easily lead to a dead character.
well first of all, if they’re saying its truly random they’re full of crap. There are pseudo-random elements, but a huge part of the skill of the game is controlling/avoiding those.
In something like this its pretty clear that longer sets would get more consistent results, and ones that more represented the ‘skill’ of the players. The only questions are if going to 3/5 makes enough of a difference, and if its worth the extra time it takes (I’d guess more than doubling the time, but that’s a guess)
Yeah but you’re comparing this game to a dice roll pretty much, which it isn’t. A dice roll is exactly what you are talking about when something “can never be predicted nor consistently replicated” since each roll does not affect the future rolls of the dice. But this is is a game we’re talking about, each game does affect what is happens in the following games because people adjust strategies and such. A match consists of several games where people can counter-pick, change team order, etc. And having an anti-statistics stance ain’t cool bro. I know it doesn’t accurately paint the full picture, but its data can be useful. You can compare the use stats in marvel to the use of stats in sports. I mean Kobe thinks he’s the best clutch shooter in the history of the NBA, but numbers say he’s mediocre at best. That doesn’t stop him from shooting the game-winning shot. I wasn’t really arguing that my made up numbers make the game more fun, but increasing more games helps determine who the better player is because it reduces randomness.
edit: I’m seeing honzo’s point about the randomness about this game, but i still stand by my position saying that having more games reduces it. The randomness comes from having a game engine with tons of freedom. You can mix up so many ways from so many positions on screen, that you can’t see everything coming. That makes everything you do feel random. Games like street fighter on the other hand can be based on knowing what your opponent can do because the options are fewer.
I think the smarter the players are the more important it is to have more than 2/3 matches is important because smarter players will take more advantage of the quick momentum swings or “randomness” the game presents. Situations that put you in mix ups that you can’t see with the naked eye that will kill you or get you really close to dying just because they invaded your space. These situations when they kill off even one character kill off the chances your team has to win the match. At that point you want any little thing to help the players I feel.
Too much of matches in this game depends on who gets their first character killed due to the resources you lose once you lose your first character. That or whoever ends up running the shit back in XF3 which nobody takes seriously as a real comeback. That just isn’t interesting for competitive play 2/3 IMHO. That’s why at the bare minimum I would like top 8 of a local or top 32 of a major to be 3/5.
Scientific method can’t control for the momentum shifts (confounder?), unfortunately, so more matches could possibly help the loser of the first game recover in this sense.
This would be very useful to try out, and measure the average time of these against 2/3.
Obviously wait for Ultimate, do some majors with 2/3. If folks aren’t pleased, try with 3/5.
Absolutely, but I don’t understand why you would have the word subjectively inserted before “feels random.” Doesn’t “feeling” already imply a subjective experience since it is a personal thing. But anyway the feeling of randomness comes from the mixups or whether people are mashing or just when people do something completely unexpected. But I guess you can argue that people aren’t completely random and are a product of the biochemical and quantum mechanical processes in their brain, but I cannot comment on this and will only go so far as saying, “I don’t think I’m talking about marvel anymore.”
Edit: i guess randomness can also come from mental mistakes like dropping combos or wrong inputs. But is that true randomness?
Lol. My small brain can’t comprehend how you’re right if I’m right… but if you’re right then that means we should just have best out of 1 matches and just be done with it, right? Then tournaments will be over faster, everyone has chance at winning evo, and then we can all go home and play scrabble.
We are current playing single elim in MvC3 though. We play 3 rounds and move on, like SF4 at SBO. The thing is our 3 rounds are also 3 games and people are like “we play 3 games, it’s fine”.
