You’re suggesting I react to a 2 frame command grab?
Zangief’s blockstrings are mostly tight. You’ll only be able to whip out the ex run when he stops them.
And you aren’t understanding what I’m saying, If Zangief is churning butter during YOUR blockstrings, for example, cr lp x 2 st. mp etc, if he is doing that during your blockstrings then you should do something, like cr lp x2 - ex bushin flip if you know he is mashing out that SPD, I would never say do an Armour cancel during his blockstrings, since most of his end in Green hand or something.
Why wouldn’t you just jump straight up or back dash if you expect him to churn during your block string(again I’m not suggesting these as fool proof methods to beat Gief, just if you KNOW he will spd)?
The point is, throw invincibility for an airborn move doesn’t really help against ground based throws. The projectile invincibilty is probably more useful imo.
It’s kinda funny though; EX green hand is probably one of the things armor cancelling might work against. Iirc, green hand is considered a projectile so ex bushin would go through it if you can armor cancel after absorbing the first hit. Whether you could actually punish him afterwards is a different story though.
I’m not trying to be contrary for the sake of being contrary, I just think it’s good to discuss these things and thoroughly examine their merit and applications in a real match before espousing them as great tactics to everyone in the forums. You need someone to play devil’s advocate.
I’d liken this to how everyone was saying izuna drop could counter shit like Blanka ball, dragon punches, etc, etc. How realistic is this and are there easier options that lead to more damage anyway? That’s always something to consider.
u can u2 the lk and mk versions its -4 and -2 although it can be pretty hard to tell the difference
So when I do get in what is it that Guy actually does to be threating or apply pressure? What normals are you using after your knockdown? Throws, elbow, N Jumping H.kick? Do some work better on Chun than Guile?
I decided not to follow up with a post, because it’s obvious enough that armour cancel bushin flip in no way makes the Zangief match up easier, but Blooddrunk and K1 seem pretty convinced otherwise.
But if you play out the options, this is how it goes:
Zangief can do:
- Jump meaty knees/splash > SPD/Suplex- Outcome: You guard the meaty attack and punish the grab. This is the only favourable outcome.
- Empty Jump Siberian Suplex- Outcome: You Ex Run INTO the Suplex and get grabbed. Being grabbed leads to the vortex re-starting.
- Jump meaty knees/splash > crouch low and press cr.LP or LK- Outcome: The first time round, the Zangief might get confused and stand up and get grabbed. Subsequent times, he can just jump cancel lariat you as you’re coming down, just as you pointed out. Lariat leads to knock down leads to vortex re-starting again.
These are the 3 main options and armour flip gives you a favourable outcome against 1 out of 3 of them… and its nothing that you can’t replicate by just blocking and mashing out a backdash or Ex Spin Kick, both of which in fact give you a favourable option against 2 of Zangief’s 3 options.
Blooddrunk lowered the bar from “armor cancels DO get you out of giefs vortex pretty handily” to “You don’t always have to do it but its to keep your opponent honest” but the lowered bar just goes to show that armour cancel roll doesn’t get you out of gief’s vortex handily and therefore does not significantly make the Zangief match up easier.
I don’t want to come off as argumentative or condescending (because I’d rather stop posting in SRK than get involved in yet another dumb argument) but this is one instance where players are taking a bit of theory, or a bit of experience against bad opponents, and making generalisations about the match up in general.
It just means you won’t be grabbed on start up of the move its only if you suspect a SPD… its not like its a Bad idea or anything,since Hawk and Gief will always try to land that Throw especially since it will, Green hand it would be better to just MK tatsu as he will recover fast enough for you to not grab him. Yes EX tatsu, Jump, Backdash etc are options but its just an added option to it. I’m not saying every time Gief goes for an SPD or you expect an SPD to always do EX Bushin. It’s just another option that you can use, its really up to you. And This Is K1 and Miikey Boi have done the testing to make sure it does work, but honestly its just another option .
That is my point. The fact that it is “just another option” but not a dominant option that is going to save your ass against 2 out of 3 of Zangief’s vortex mix up means that it does not make the match up significantly easier for Guy. When Guy gets knocked down he still has to guess what Zangief is going to do, and if he guesses wrong, he gets knocked down again. Armour cancel roll does not change this.
The question that’s being asked in this thread is not “does it work or not”. The question that’s being asked is “Does it make the Zangief match easier for Guy?”. From my own testing and from what I’ve heard on these forums, the answer is no.
Re: the matchup with Juri:
I put it at 5/5 because Juri can keep Guy out indefinitely if she knows what shes doing. She has some of the best AA’s in the game including: HK Fuhajin Release, cr.mp, cr.hp, cr.mk, cr.hk, HK Super, U2, and her Counter Movement.
Juri also has some really nasty pressure strings in the corner. all of that being said, if you can get an untech knockdown on juri, shes pretty free on wakeup. all she can do is either EX counter movemet, or EX pinwheel. ex pinwheel can be grabbed and her counter movement can be option selected (kinda…you have to predict her to either go up or slide behind you…if she goes up you can OS with EX tatsu, if she goes behind you you can OS with cr.hk)
if she goes up can’t you option select with TK Izuna.
Juri seems to have a pretty clear advantage. I haven’t tested thoroughly, but her lk pinwheel is -4 iirc. If she spaces is it right I don’t think you can reach her with either stand jab or reversal ex tatsu. Can anyone confirm this?
Also her crouch mk and crouch hk are really difficult for Guy to deal with since they go under his tatsus and stand mk and beat cr.mp.
I see no reason for her to ever jump at him. If she stays on the ground and sticks to her safe pressure with fireballs and cr.mk xx lk pinwheel, I have a hard time seeing Guy going even. He can’t mount a solid pressure from the air because her normal anti-airs stop everything he has clean, even when done extremely late.
if he can bait out a wheel kick you can punish with either a throw or cr.hk/cr.mk for the untech knockdown. once you get that, pressure her (just as in most other matchups) just remember her pinwheel is invincible on startup and she can use it against jumpins. make sure you constantly have her on knockdown one way or another. if that means tick throwing the shit out of her, do it. you can grab her out of ex pinwheel (not sure about other versions, one might have throw invulnerability). If Juri has U2 stocked and there is space between you, she will get antsy and want to use EX Divekick > U2. if you can predict the divekick, you can punish with anything you want. btw, juri can also frame trap you with a properly spaced divekick > EX Pinwheel.
Plus… Juri is free as hell on wake up unless she has U2 stocked. Where you can pretty do EX bushin flip over and over again. If she tries to AA you with Pinwheel, you can beat or trade with Elbow or if you are feeling ballsy, Izuna. Her Pinwheel may be invincible but you can grab her out of it even EX on startup. Plus due to her low health and stun, makes it a harder match up for her. So really Juri doesn’t have much for her besides being defensive which isn’t hard for Guy to get around.
just like almost all of Guys matchups, it revolves around getting that first knockdown. If the Juri knows how to zone and space properly, youre going to have one hell of a time getting in at all. i honestly sometimes feel like this matchup is worse than vs. sim.
No offense, but you guys are playing some pretty bad Juri players.
I play Juri myself. Id like to play you if you think im wrong about the Juri matchup lol
I play a relatively good Juri player, who Mains Bison but Sides Juri and Adon, so he has her pressure game on lock. I just know when to block, he rarely goes aerial or even throws a divekick out because I’ll just TK izuna it or punish it. He knows not to do Pinwheel outside of combo and god forbid on wake up, I’ve even fought against K1’s Juri. That match up isn’t as hard as you think.
Heya dude. Believe me, I’d love to be proven wrong. If you can show me where I’m making mistakes, I’d appreciate it.
I’m on the west coast of Canada so the connection should be decent/playable.
I’ll look you up next time I’m on. And if you could use a mic that would be cool too.
Cheers
definitely, sounds good. Id also like to run Dee Jay, Cammy, Vega and a Mirror against you if thats cool with you
I seriously can’t see how the guy chun match is 5-5
this is imo one of guys hardest matchups.
Her backdash is too good in this match up. (option select doesnt work)
her 3frame jabs can stop guy’s pressure
her sweep is stupidly good
cr.mk lowers her hit box
good fireball hard to punish
unlike guile she has footsies frametraps speed and 3framejab
you cannot compare this like you would fighting guile.
I think Guy has more troube with chun’s pressure than she does his.
and I almost forgot her super punshes blocked shoulders.
6.5/3.5 for chun imo.