Imo, that is one of SF4’s biggest flaws. Some characters can generate way too much safe offensive/defensive options for just 2 stocks whereas others have to carefully guess and take major risks for usually far smaller rewards.
Either they need to removed the ability to fadc blocked dps or make them horribly unsafe even when cancelled. Or make it so the only fadc’able dp has 0 invincible frames and give the other ones tons of invincibilty, but without the ability to fadc them.
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS. I asked my dude Mr SNK for advice on Honda vs. Guy and he said:
“Pick another character. Play your Gouken instead”. Real talk. I’ve not beaten one single DECENT or AVERAGE Honda in recent memory. I noticed when I first played the game that auto correcting is on anabolic steroids in this game too. Honda is my personal worst matchup, outside of Chun Li and Rog. I’ve been doing OK against decent Rogs lately though.
honda is Guy’s toughest matchup in my opinion, but hes not as impossible as everyone seems. ill see if i can play a few hondas and record the matches for yall. and honestly, i wouldnt trust anyone outside of a Guy user on a matchup regarding Guy. the LARGE LARGE majority of players dont really know much about Guy.
please record against a good chun as well…most matches i see against chun the guy player loses everytime lol ;_;…(i heard kiryu beat Nemo at godsgarden, i cant find a video anywhere)… also is there anyway to safe jump after a knockdown from the second hit from C.Mk (as in only the second hit)…jump d+strong seems too slow and i get hit by ex-spinning bird… i heard that move has 6 frame startup?..so it should definetely be safe-jumpable
yeah i will absolutely try and record vs a chun. should be up n a couple of days, ill see if i can play with shizza again. for some reason i dont think EX SBK has 6 frames of startup…that seems too slow…it comes out pretty quick.
Mr SNK is a LEGIT tourney Honda. He should either beat the pants off of you like he does me or give you a very good test. I suggest that you tell him that I referred you to him for some games, and good luck trying to find ANYTHING Guy can use vs. Honda.
no i know hes a legit honda, im just saying that MANY high level players still dont know much about Guy. take ryder for example. dude is a monster but got put on blast hardcore by dieminion. same thing with combofiend vs marn. and yeah ill see if i can run some matches with him. ill pm him. thanks for the referral
Well off of cr mk you’re better off with going for an lp bushin flip for the 1 frame grab or EX izuna safe jump cause if Chun were to do EX SBK she will be grabbed and i’m not sure if she is able to be grabbed from Backdash.
Not sure if you’re saying that Balrog can react to f+MP by pressing c.LP and Zangief can’t react to ex bushin by crouching. If so, that’s a pretty ridiculous thing to say.
Also, armour cancels don’t get out of SPDs. If it’s not working for you and is something that you think “should” be working in theory, you shouldn’t be talking about it as if it works.
Well what he is saying is against Gief if they are churning that butter like its nothing… EX Bushin Flip… all day when you meter. Especially if they do it in blockstrings and you know EVERYONE does or if you suspect a SPD to being coming.
rog can mash jab and break a lot of things ( like f.mp)
if gief SPD’s and you throw out an EX bushin you go through it and get a free 200 dmg bushin flip throw due to giefs throw whiff animation. yes its been tested. and actually yes, armor cancels DO get you out of giefs vortex pretty handily. giefs almost always throw out a move when they are crossing up which will activate the armor cancel. and no its not just in theory ive done it quite a few times. when i post i almost always make sure its actually viable in a match. i hate theory fighting.
Edit: sorry if i sound like an asshole. didnt mean to come off that way.
First I wanted to thank you for making this thread and posting your thoughts and observations. I find lots of this will help. That being said the list does seem a tad biased in some ways but you are totally right that the bias goes both was also underestimating Guy.
Chun Li - 5.0 / 5.0 (Even)
Biggest surprise here. Not doubting your skills but she seems to dominate Guy so hard with footies. What are you doing after your knockdowns exactly? How do you keep pressure on her? I’d like to know the attacks you use specifically. Maybe I’m using the wrong normals or jump ins. Do you use option selects?
Dhalsim - 5.0 / 5.0 (Even)
This is a match up I thought would be easy but actually turned out difficult. What are your best options to get in? Capable Dhalsims read me like a book sometimes.
Fei Long - 5.5 / 4.5 (Fei Long’s favor)
I think so too. Just cause I fought some good ones recently and got out poked kinda badly. Why do you think this is a bad one for Guy. Also can you U2 a blocked chicken Wing? It worked every time for me online but is it legit?
Guile - 5.5 / 4.5 (Guy’s favor)
This is one many say is tough for Guy. Why do you think it’s favorable? What’s so different from Dee Jay? What are you doing to bait or keep your pressure going?
Juri - 5.0 / 5.0 (Even)
This is one I heard was actually in Guy’s favor since it’s hard for Juri to zone Guy. What does Juri do to Guy to make up for this?
I’m pretty bad in general with match up knowledge so your insight helps a lot. I never thought to use EX Bushin flip against command throw attempts ect. Also whenever you guys mention Izuna you mean the air grab right? The ground one you call Bushin flip? It’s just both of these moves have Izuna in the name don’t they?
Also when you use say to focus armor do you mean the run to ultra cancel on wake up? On Zangief do you mean to use ultra 2 after he knocks you down when he crosses up?
Will you ever do a Guy tutorial video to demonstrate what to do in his harder match ups?
A little off topic.
Before the game arrived, we though that guy would be a quite powerful character. The initial videos showed a strong wakeup mixup, and somehow of an akuma’s like “vortex”.
With the release, guy was proved to be a “low tier” character. The flip can be beaten with mash crouching jab, hozanto is slow and unsafe, Target Combo misses a lot… etc.
Now, with new findings and better understanding of the matchups…
…is guy 5-5 vs most of the cast?
I fear that guy will be like Vega in the vanilla, who raised from being the worst character in the game, to a mid-low tier (when the continuous wall dive izuna drop trap in wakeup was found, a great but hard to do trick that is character dependant, and some shenningans like safe jumps after certain moves…) and now in Super SF4 vega was improved a lot with an df+mk overhead, a better ultra, and the end of the wall-dive bug.
Guy probably won’t see any improvement until the new characters release
As a personal note, My bad luck was that i liked and played Vega when he was the worst character, and now i’m trying to learn guy… just when he is still considered a “low tier” character.
Sometimes i feel like i should keep with my vega, and wait for guy to improve… but guy was my choice in Final Fight and i fell confortable with him.
I’m learning Cody too.
I still don’t get how this is a better option than just jumping straight up and punishing with a combo (not that that’s something to be abused either). Both options leave you prone to crouch lariat if Gief does nothing, but one costs no meter and leads to more damage.
Armor cancelling the run into ex bushin flip to get away from ambiguous knees is a nice idea, but I’m still not sold on how feasible it is. I’ve honestly never seen even the very best Guy players do this in a match.
Actually no… neither options leaves you to lariat. Gief doesn’t recover in time. He has 45-52 frames of recover from all his grabs minus normal grab. Guy’s jump if it was ever stated is 40 frames completely iirc. Guy has the ability to do both options we aren’t saying use EX bushin flip as the only option you and mix it up of course, But Armour cancel is a good idea because any Gief player will go for either a combo, or Tick SPD, if they go for a combo they always use a Low Attack from all the videos I’ve seen and either into Green Hand or Lariat. You don’t always have to do it but its to keep your opponent honest.
Chun yeah its a bit hard due to footsies but the match up is similar to Guiles, if she keeps Guy out… she can win, if Guy gets in Chun can lose… really easily because the only defense she has is EX SBK and her 3 frame jab, but many will go for that Low kick to EX legs to get you to heck out of here. You can play footsies with Chun you just have to be smart.
Sim- Really its the same as Chun, you get in Sim is fucked doesn’t matter WHAT he does aside from maybe ultra. IF he does an aerial teleport EX Bushin flip sometimes to catch him since most of them will go for HP, if he teleports behind you I’ve seen this done by Kiryu and a lot of succession here. EX tatsu or RH tatsu. Just try to get in without taking a lot of damage. and stay on top of Sim
Fei- I think only the light and medium kick version you can… unsure
Guile- Guile if you get him Guile gets raped, If you are zoned out you’re raped, But the only thing saving Guile here is recovery from Boom, and Cr. HP, his Flashkick is useless against Guy. Getting in on Guile can be a bit tough, but proper baits can help there. It can even be 5/5 depending on your outlook.
Juri- to me Guy has the advantage, but it’s mostly because Juri has a low hitbox from some of her attacks to avoid MK and EX tatsu, so Guy doesn’t have a very good wake up option for her.
And yes we mean Bushin flip to be ground, Izuna to be air, We recently found out that EX bushin is unthrowable on start up, so this is why its a useful tactic against grapplers and other moves,
And Armour cancel we are talking about doing EX Bushin flip for the armour cancel. However U2 may work and may not as Guy may not auto correct.
I meant if he does nothing and you jump up/EX bushin flip, he can crouch lariat you for free on the way down or even headbutt you if he’s feeling ballsy. I mean it’s not like you’re cancelling into EX bushin flip so there’s no blockstun to give him less time to react (For the record I think that cancelling into bushin flip point blank is always a bad idea).
And if they’re just churning butter, armor cancelling will only get you spd’d.
If they are churning butter just EX bushin flip if they are doing in block strings just cancel out into it, but remember its just an option you dont have to do it.
or give you a very good test. I suggest that you tell him that I referred you to him for some games, and good luck trying to find ANYTHING Guy can use vs. Honda.