It’s funny, because if Cammy could get into her Ultra off of like, non-FADC’d Spikes in the corner and could Dive kick into say a c.LK into x into Ultra like Rufus can with Dive Kick -> s.LK s.RH Ultra, Cammy would probably even be better than him.
If Rufus gets Ultra, his throws increase significantly in value; guessing wrong and throwing a Dive Kick gets you killed. This is all at little to no risk on the part of Rufus. When Cammy gets Ultra, she’s landing it is off of a focus attack or FADCd Spike, which is a very real possibility, but harder to land and through paying meter. I don’t know how hard it is, but maybe we need to start confirming a single EX Strike into Ultra (Or maybe you all have been and I’m way behind the curve!) And at least Rufus has to spend 3, not 2 stock to get his Ultra off his shoryu. ;p
Well, cammy CAN get her ultra off of non fadc spikes and dive kicks with counter hit c.fierce. The only reliable way i’ve been able to do this is off of dive kick mixups after a knockdown. If they try to do a move on wake up and get crossed up, you get your CH c.fierce, into ultra OR you can do jabx2, CH c.fierce ultra. Both are pretty risky, because of reversals, but the pay off is pretty decent.
And about cammy/rufus similarities, i don’t think they’re as similar as they seem. It’s a lot easier to pressure and get inside with rufus. His dive kick is better than cammy’s, and he can at least pressure with something that does chip damage.
Buk, i think chip damage is important simply because without it or something that’s extremely good (ie: extra throw range) there’s no reason to leave db vs her. When i’m fighting another cammy, i literally just sit there, becuase she can’t do anything to me. Nothing. S.rh?? s.fierce?? s.mk??? yea awesome pokes, but what are they doing?? this isn’t cvs where eating a couple of those on block work your guard meter. Hooligan?? nope again, move is almost worthless. So i usually have no problem sitting there. So what is there left for her to do, walk up and try to throw. Rog eats that for free with jabs, akuma can just jump back and do whatever and sagat can wait to tech or just do s.lk into whatever.
IF at least her EX dive kick had decent priority and didn’t get beat by jabs, she could be a bit better, but as it is right now and as the game progresses, it’ll only get worst for her. I think she can “win”, but some matchups are just really really bad.
It does help a lot against Turtlers, though. It at least gives them some form of threat to make them try and react more. Balrog and Guile are definitely the worst offenders to Cammy on this front, but as you said, more characters than just Cammy seem to have problems breaking their defenses. But it does help to have that ability. Some people who know Cammy well literally shell up and just don’t look like they are scared of anything, and it makes the fight really hard.
Yeah, this is the reason i think that CvS2 and Third Strike players “get” SFIV more than ST players. Both of those games were all about capitalizing on mistakes. Games like ST and even Alpha 2 had more emphasis on Block Damage (well, after the Valle CC, Alpha 2 became something completely different, so nevermind about Alpha 2). The idea of not caring about block damage and just finding your opening is the mindset I’ve started learning for this game, and why I feel like I’m doing better with Cammy now. It’s a hard one to get ingrained into your head when you’ve come from so many years of ST, but one that I really need to learn.
This makes me think of a conversation I had once with Kim (Ohayo1234) and I was complaining about CvS2 and said to him, “The thing about CvS2 is that it’s all about landing your Meter. If you land your Meter, you win. If you get your Meter blocked, you lose.” And his reaction was, “…Y-y-y-y-y-yeah?” in a sort of “…and your point is…?” type of way. To him, that was the game and that’s how the game is played. And that’s a good indication of the mindset. Find your opening and do the damage from there. It’s the name of the game.
This is really important, here. You’re right: this is basically how Cammy plays as well. I’ve done a lot better after Throwing a lot more as a means by which to get people to mash more. She can’t do nearly as much damage as Rufus can, unfortunately, when landing moves (since Rufus can so easily land his Ultra), which, coupled with Rufus’s far superior Dive Kick, is what makes her weaker than Rufus IMO.
The other problem is that, as Faux said in another thread, there is no comeback ability for Cammy because she is severely limited in situations where she has no life, being unable to do any decent form of chip damage. Walking up to throw at that point is not an easy proposition with such little life, as counter jabs can actually kill you at that point. But, again, that just might be a weakness of Cammy’s that us Cammy players have to learn to accept. But it’s a bitter pill to swallow.
I’ve actually come to agree with this. Well… maybe not completely agree, but I think it depends on who they are fighting. Certain characters are easier for Rufus, others are easier for Cammy. Plus, Cammy at least has a way to stop people from attacking her easily, since if they do decide to mount an offense, you DO have one of the best DPs in the game priority-wise. I just wish that thing didn’t miss so darn much. I die off of whiffed Cannon Spikes so much.
Her super/ultra chip is limited to very specific situations or scenarios. A naked Super/Ultra chip is very risky and even suicidal if Cammy’s low in life also.
It’s actually really easy to escape chip damage via Ultras in this game. Most people have moves that are invincible enough to try and avoid the Ultra all together. For example, if you activate your Ultra, even early enough before the opponent gets up off the ground, and let’s say the opponent is Ken, they can literally mash :df: and hit all three punches and they’ll wake up with a Reversal EX Uppercut that will pass through your Ultra and they’ll be safe. Worse yet, if they have an Ultra, they mash QCF + 3 Punches / 2 Kicks and do easy Reversal waek-up Ultras to out Ultra your Ultra.
The art of the Meaty attack has been completely destroyed by SFIV. It’s another one of those sad things that old schoolers like me have a hard time accepting. But it’s true: the Meaty Attack is almost no more in SFIV.
It needs to be be used sparingly like any Shoryukens.
If it wiffs, its game over with anyone whos above scrub level and possesses a strong cross over game.
For me if c.spike isn’t used as a direct anti-air, or linked, don’t use it.
Whiffing c.spike is the fastest way to get punished by a n00b Akuma player with super/ultra demon. So embarassing, happened to me so many times when I started playing out. :looney:
Ding ding ding!!! Wake up meaties were the huge part of older SF series. Sure reversals beat them cleanly, but that was part of the mind game. You can bait reversals and punish their reversals. The use or feint use of meaties was in itself an art form. A crucial knock down in the older SF series can sometime be the turning point in the entire match.
ie. In ST, Zangief can be down to a sliver of life left, but 1 well timed knocked down, he can come back with his tick SPDs, c.lk feint SPDs or meaty splashes and come back against a full life bar opponent.
In SF 4, the reversal window is just RIDICULOUS, it has effectively destroyed all wake up meaties. The remaining “safer” meaties are the jump in meaties and/or cross ups, but they are often trades should really be considered as a form of chip damage. Again, if your opponents have ultras/supers stocked, even the jump in meaties become super risky with little or no reward for the risk taking.
In SF 4, it’s actually more dangerous approaching your opponents as they are getting up than having them staying on their feet, this essentially making knock downs less relevant in the game (You can confirm they aren’t mashing buttons while they are on their feet visually, where as, getting up after a knock down, you have NO IDEA what they are mashing).
To me, this is proven by the fact that just standing there and doing nothing is a GREAT strategy. I have faced several players who get a lead and will literally just stand there for 30+ seconds until the timer runs down. They will respond to fireballs and jump ins, but they will NOT attack.
I agree with you on this. I guess the huge window for reversals is one way that capcom wanted to make this game more accessible to a larger group of gamers. I think its great that a lot more people are actually playing this game, however everything has its consequences. This one being an incredibly large group of people who just refuse to learn how to get better even with all the tweaks that make this game very easy to pick up. Oh well its still a possibility that when the 18th version/ patch for this game comes out there will be some dramatic changes.
Cammy meaties c.LK. Ken does Shoryuken. Cammy takes 5-15% damage.
Cammy early c.LKs. Ken does Shoryuken. Cammy recovers. Shooooryuuuuken. At worst, Ken eats TK Strike xx s.Fierce xx Spike. At best he eats ‘x’ into an Ultra.
Cammy meaties c.LK. Ken blocks. You go for tick attempt, c.LP c.LK etc, pause to bait a normal / shoryu into c.MK confirm, jump reset (into EX Spike or whatever), Focus, whatever.
The reversal window in SF4 is extremely lenient, but it doesn’t render meaties irrelevant. It’s especially frustrating with Cammy, though, because to really be scary you need to get in there with Strikes, and when your EX Strike gets Shoryureppa’d, you might kill your neighbor’s cat by throwing your HRAP3 out the window.
It’s not just the reversal window that dilutes the threat of the meaty though; it’s that virtually everyone in the game has at least one semi-reliable reversal attack in either their normal or EX movesets, and some of them are straight up get out of jail free cards. I mean, against Bison, I feel like his Super bar is basically an extended lifebar that you have to bleed out before you can actually pressure him. Each stock is another EX Stomp you have to bleed out of him.
Also, Cammy question; her backthrow gives her more frames to oki. If I jump and quickly Strike after jumping (Wait more than a TK Strike) and land on the other side, with proper timing, is it possible to meaty a c.LK? If so, we need to back throw every time and mess with dive kick timings for oki crossups off the throw.
OK, so I have my Spiral Arrows under control now, but now I have a tendency to throw out Cannon Spikes when I actually wanted a Spiral Arrow. :mad: It cost me several matches yesterday against my friend.
assuming you’re playing high level st and your opponent can reversal reliably, what are your options?
attack, risk eating the reversal, beat all other forms of mashing and get a combo
block, attempt to bait the reversal, risk getting wake up thrown
back up, give up momentum
this is almost exactly the same scenario as modern games, but in modern games the scenario favors the attacker more usually. blocked reversals are infinitely more unsafe in most modern games than in st (unless they are FADCed of course)
the ability to have a threatening walkup, where you can sufficiently scare a guy into not pressing buttons, is one of the core aspects of footsies
if you think he’s going to mash, press your button first
if he blocked it, you could have walked up farther
if he’s doing some long ranged move to zone you out, those pretty much always have a counter: jump over it, focus attack, whatever
not anytime soon. im far from an authority on this game. ive barely watched any videos, haven’t traveled to any majors yet, and ive pretty much only played local dallas guys
