So I recently heard people talking about banning the Cronus because it ‘burns out usb ports’ and ‘causes other controllers to drop inputs’. This sounded funny to me, as we’ve been using the Cronus extensively in Vancouver for over a year since we get them through Canadian Joysticks at a good price and we have a lot of pad players and people that don’t want to invest in a dual mod, and we’ve yet to have reports of anything of the sort, despite using them on all makes and models, and extensively at weeklies and tournaments for over a year. Not a single console damaged, and not a single complaint of other players ‘dropping inputs’ The whole thing just seemed really fishy. So I actually did some testing on the original Cronus.
I do not at this time have access to a CronusMax or XboxOne, so I cannot test them at this time, but I believe that the results will be similar.
So I cut up a USB extension and took some current readings last night.
The max load on a USB 2.0 port is 0.5A, this comes in at well under that and after 5 hours of being left plugged in the device was still cool to the touch. USB burnouts seem just about impossible, if you have personally experienced a burnout (not just heard about one), please tell me about it and we’ll look and see what’s up with that; but otherwise I’m calling that particular claim dead.
I’m currently working on a rig that will alternate between P and K on button press so I can count any missed P->K cylcles in an input display on a stick plugged in next to a cronus, two sticks with cronuses, and two sticks with no cronus to test the “forces dropped inputs” but a combination of that not being how USB communication works and Iplaywinner results in doing a ‘toodles test’ makes me doubtful that there will be a satistically significant difference between test groups.
If you have any actual accounts regarding problems with the cronus device, please tweet at me CxR_Coren. Please do not waste my time with second hand accounts, or claims of ‘I dropped my combo’ because I need actual details and not rumours and subjective things that can be explained by human input error.
Am I misunderstanding your readings? My multimeter reads in a different fashion from yours, but now that I look at it, it doesn’t line up. Mine (on 200mA max mode, which is what you’re turned to) displays mA readings, with an error if it goes over. That would make the combo reading 1.3mA, but that don’t make a lick of sense (also you’re on the 10A fuse, which might change how yours reads? Mine is paired to only read at 10A max on the larger fuse, and has a units display for no confusion.)
You saying “The max load on a USB 2.0 port is 0.5A, this comes in at well under that” doesn’t make any sense if the reading is over an amp, aside from if this was an oversight from you changing your formerly inaccurate 5A value before the other-thread correction.
All of this said, the thing we need to remember is that not all of the units are going to be bad, as well. Testing them is good if we can find a positive cause of the damage (Data! Yeah!), but testing it and not finding issues does not mean that other units, or units under different conditions, do not cause problems. Figuring out the issues that are happening needs to be the focus, but mostly as an intellectual exercise, and to identify if future similar products have the issues. The CronusMAX people using the same hardware (to the point of recycling stocked units) and patching in new firmware isn’t exactly promising, considering we’re talking about hardware QA problems, though they are in fairness claiming to be doing stricter QA checks on all the units they’re repurposing. There’s been enough issues reported that a could-not-reproduce report doesn’t close this bug as resolved.
When we’re talking multi-hundred-dollar-consoles, some of which are lent for the event to the event organizers, unless all Cronus owners want to put up a $500 deposit in case of causing hardware malfunction/damage, the responsible thing is to blanket ban them. Optimally, we figure out what’s going on. It’d be great if we could get a reported-damaging unit, and a reported-damaged console, into the hands of an experienced modder/EE for investigation. I want data on this, too.
From what I heard, the USB blowout came out of the XCM forums from some troll that got sacked. Unfortunately since those posts are gone, I can’t find enough info on it to know more info and whatnot. I do know Cronus and CronusMAX models heat up but we all know that. As for that Youmacon situation, I wish there was more info behind that; It might have been people being cruel when connecting and disconnecting but I still feel concerned regardless.
But yeah I did a Toodles-style test when I originally reviewed it for IPW before knowing much of the claims that arose. While I am limited in detailed testing, I will try the same test again with different variables and might try other methods like the VF5 frame viewer. I am concerned about the claims especially with the following bans but I do understand the reasons though. At the moment, I rather just gather data from the original and CronusMAX models.
The combined readout is 130mA, a little over 25% of the 500mA limit for USB 2.0. Yeah, I corrected the 5A thing, that’s only for USB charging ports (that’s what I get for not reading a specs list carefully enough).
My background is in Mechatronic Systems Engineering, and I’m consulting with Tigre, and Tiger Jackson from Canadian Joysticks regarding EE and Modding factors.
I’ve heard that Jebailey possibly had a port damaged by the device, so I’ve contacted him via twitter to ask for details. I find all these sudden reports of cronus related console damage strange though, because as I’ve said we’ve been using them all over the place at events in Vancouver for over a year now, and many of our players brought them to EVO and we’ve yet to have any console damage or complaints about dropped inputs. We’ve had people complain about having trouble authenticating a cronus, but they usually occur when people don’t follow the instructions that come with the device, or don’t install the software onto it properally.
Most Tournaments including Evo lacks the time, man power and resources to manually check things the Cronus display or (for example) if every modded Dual shock 3 has wireless disabled.
Its easier for them to come up with a blanket policy to outright ban devices with programmable macros than to test out each Cronus device and read the LED display.
Its great someone taking a dive and getting actual test Data. Then again science takes a backseat to politics and it is easier to just ban the device then get proper data to allow it.
Later this month I am meeting with a staff who runs a local Anime Convention including those who run the game room and tournaments , I going to discuss the issue with them and see where there policy goes.
They people who runs the toruney reserve exclusive rights to ban any controller at their discretion, so even if the device isn’t banned they could say No to the Cronus moments before a match.
(to be fair they do have a collection of house owned controllers that are used as loaners).
Even if the lag, amp, QC and power concerns are meet, there still are the questions about Macros. Right now the Cronus and Cronus Max are visually identical. There some minor differences but then due to limited time, resources and personnel, this is not going to pre-screen before a match. Sometimes the policy makers are unconcern over the actual technical standpoint like if it is a business or Convention that sponsoring/organizing the tournament, that the decision might be made for the people who are working the tournament (like the head of the con, a lawyer or affluent business man).
Also having the Cronusmax apparently being made by a different group is not going to help credibility of the Cronus.
One concern is, and don’t take offence @Coren, but you have to remain non-bias for any one to take your test data seriously. We have alot of skeptics here so you have a tough time and a tough crowd trying to convince the cronus device claims are legit and safe.
The one BIG hope for Cronus world wide for tournaments is, (pending your results and results of other’s test data) if the people who makes Cronus makes a TE version that is visually easy to identify.
@The Phantomnaut
One problem there is you have no way to back up your claim that the Cronusmax issue is made up nonsense.
The rumor that “the USB blowout came out of the XCM forums from some troll that got sacked” is also as problematic as the original rumor that the Cronus is causing major issues.
Thanks for testing this by the way. I was very interested in this thing until some rumors of destroying USB ports arose. There is still the question of other mechanical variables destroying the ports like the strain a wired controller would put on the console, and if it really does generate enough heat to wreck a port. Granted at home these mechanical issues might be bypassed by going from wired controller/stick, to Cronus max, to a usb extender. Granted I do not know if it would change the voltage or if it would induce more potential lag that some USB extenders potentially induce.
I also agree with Darksakul that more people need to test this. However your set up is shown, and can be easily reproduced. I also think it is great that someone has taken the initiative to clear up some of these rumors.
The broken port rumor wasn’t just started by some dude on a forum, Focus Fire had 2 systems that no longer had a functioning port after a Cronus was used.
IMO, this is a physical breakage, since most 360s at tournaments are not vertically set. The ports are in a different alignment than other systems and it’s possible the issue is a perfect happenstance of weight and distance from the port causing a bad tweak and a short. This gets worse since tourney players aren’t always the most mindful of how they plug and unplug.
Also, kind of a dick move if a bunch of your players used a cronus at EVO given how easy macros are able to be done. Considering it’s listed in the rules.
I hope you are able to run proper tests and find out more info than just hearsay though, good luck!
Nice job. Does anyone know what kind of fuses (if any) are on the 360’s USB lines? It’s possible that some of those tripped and caused the borked consoles (although tripping at 130ma is kinda dumb). Either that, or the weight from adapter + cable bent the internal bits loose.
I’d agree with Phreak’s call on it likely being more of a physical thing than anything else; more mechanical advantage (long lever) for mis-handling to cause damage, as well; even if it’s not the weight of the device, you’ve got a big lever to bump while unplugging, causing more strain than a normal cable.
Also, the PS360+ is 20mA? Damn, that’s sharp, most of my USB interface stuff draws a couple times that on the low-end.
Don’t know, but I’d think it’d be a PTC fuse or something similar; resettable fuses make sense for this application. I’d expect it to be bus/hub-wide, too. I don’t know what they actually use, though.
Moddify something like this for console/tournament use.
Have the ends changed out to USB A ends and plugged into the USB ports of a console and have the bracket connected to the table in some manner (clamps perhaps)?
Yes that what I was thinking of, two of those attached to a bracket that is bolted or clamped to the table.
And if that cord breaks your out $2 instead of a $200 to $500 console.
They all the promises they want. In a matter like this we want results not promises.
If your quoted Facebook conversation is true (and I doubt it is) it means the CronusMax folks admit to the flaws of the CornusMax even if they don’t admit it publicly.
This is some pretty definitive proof from this atlanta event that chronus devices should be banned universally until a new model is:
Distinguishable
Proven to work in clear, repeatable conditions
Also, let’s keep this thread clean guys, don’t try to discount the “chronus hate” by saying that trolls started it, or anyone else started it. Nobody started “hate” we’re all just concerned about the tech so we’re talking about it.
The facts are that Jebailey (easily the most famous and recognizable face) has gone on record along with other TOs/Tourney Staff that a chronus device has permanently damaged systems, and we all applaud Coren for reaching out to Jebailey to try and expand what we know about the situation.
I’ve said it before, but thanks again for getting the ball rolling on this Coren, and thanks for reposting your experience that you showed us on irc here anotak. Now that I’ve seen evidence that this happens, I’m curious as to why. From what I can tell based on what i’ve been told by Coren, an entire community has side-stepped this entirely, so what are the conditions to have this happen? As soon as I have class again I’ll ask around my classmates/professors and see if anyone has a bus pirate or something similar that I can borrow (and then track down a cronus) to poke around.
There’s no place for “cronus hate” in this thread to begin with. If the only thing that someone has to post is “cronus hate” then it probably shouldn’t be in this thread.
I have low expectations of the CronusMax, since I don’t think we’ve ever had a quality adapter (exception for the low latency etokki PS2).
I have a bag of like 20 of those from Monoprice that I intend to mount on project boxes to make my own quality extensions for USB use. It’s much easier to do than plug directly into any of the consoles. Only issue would be weighing them down on the table to prevent them from moving which could be easily remedied with penny rolls.
Haha, FGC is poor, son! Fools be stealing your pennies! I was thinking along the lines of a large footprint “L” bracket which sits under the LCD monitor stand and the players just plug in under the monitor. No need to hunt for ports on the console.
-ud
