QA tester: so, what’s the point of a double hit air fireball if only one will ever hit?
capcom game designer: who cares? it’s only gouken
Then learn how to do a DP properly? They took away every character’s shortcuts. This is still a pretty slow game with lots of hitstop, doing a low move into a dragon punch is trivial. It’s like the easiest thing in the world, you walk forward, go to down back, do your normal, then go to down-forward. Ryu players often get low forward dragon punch by accident. If they have to use special techniques not to do it accidentally, you can surely learn to do it intentionally.
The new LP palm is super good. It’s not just cr.mp into palm, buffer cr.lk into palm if you feel the slightest danger. You can also do standing jab buffered into LP palm like Fei Long. It’s kind of stupid.
Also it’s a system wide change in Omega that you can’t do shortcut DP’s anymore. It’s a cool change that should probably have been in the core game. Furthermore EVERYTHING is quick risable now, that’s not a Gouken-only change.
The ground stomp has to be blocked low, has big frame advantage on hit, and can also be FADC’d out of for really big ground combos. It also combos off lights. It seems mostly like a weird way to do block strings to try and catch people trying to jump away, trying to mash a DP, or trying to backdash. It also has the really nice property of pushing far away on block, but keeping them really close on hit, so you can use it safely in blockstrings even though it looks slightly minus on block. Also, obviously EX ground stomp is an easy 1 bar ultra so thats cool.
The jab buff is really good. Just from testing, it looks like his jabs are now +2 on block and +5 on hit, which is the same as Ryu. You can basically do Ryu type hit-confirms now, and you can do tick throw set-ups and frame traps off lights like A Real Character now.
EX air tatsu definitely seems like it has either no height restriction, or a very very low one. Normal air tatsu is higher and seems pretty normal, but both versions of air tatsu have way better ground recovery. Early air tatsu seems like a totally legit way to escape the corner, it looks like it would be hard to punish even if you were anticipating it. If you can IA EX tatsu in reaction to fireballs like Adon can, that’s really sick.
His command normal donkey kick is a good counterpoke. Try it against lows, if someone is doing stuff like ryu low forward in front of you can fake walking into that range, take a step back and do it. It’s a really great move, plus the range is ridiculous. It also seems to have a great hurtbox for avoiding lows, probably because he moves forward so fast. Obviously don’t do it inside of it’s range, but at the edge of it’s range as a poke it’s really really good. Seriously!
Like most Omega characters, I’m pretty sure his dash is slightly faster, by like a frame or two.
I agree that he’s less obvious than most characters. Keep in mind that actually a lot of characters got nerfs in addition to the omega buffs. Omega isn’t just “your character gets new stuff”, it’s more like “your character gets redesigned into something new.” Omega Gouken seems a lot more like a mid-range footsy guy with more frame traps, who also has the old SF4 gouken fireball game. I was initially really confused about him too, because I assumed he would become a better zoner, but instead they ended up buffing his midrange footsies and pokes. He might still be a bad Omega character in the scheme of things, but he definitely does a lot of stuff way better than vanilla Gouken.
lol close standing light kick is +6 on hit and probably +3 on block. that dumb stupid normal is now a really good light button.
cl.lk, cl.lk, cr.hp XX EX palm totally works. walk forward close light kick sets up great tick throws.
you gotta try shit!
Some stuff:
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You can super or focus cancel the first hit of back throw. Back throw, FADC the tatsu hit, any juggle move (ultra, toward HK, whatever)
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You can use toward HK or instant air ex tatsu to juggle after MP Palm if you don’t want to use your ultra.
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And by the way, toward HK is super cancellable (and focus cancellable)
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Also, Super does 450! damage and always gets full animation, no matter what.
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You can also do super after light air tatsu (capcom been reading my thread…) This is really only useful if you catch someone trying to jump out of the corner with jMP.
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Speaking of jMP, you can do both hits into instant EX air tatsu or toward HK
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You can dash forward after EX Palm and do Ultra (full animation) without FADC.
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Overhead is super and focus cancellable, although I haven’t been able to make it link to anything
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Toward HK gives you a massive kara throw
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Pokes combo to ex fireball (c.mk c.mp etc) mid screen, first hit.
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s.LK is 4 frames. You can do s.LK s.LK s.MK x Stomp. This is the only way to get into stomp from something confirmable.
you can kindly take your snobbery and shove it directly up your anus.
I would have had no problem if there were no shortcuts in the game when it came out 5 years ago. but to take it out now is a dick move. And for you to sit here all cheerleader and finger waggy about it is a even more dickish.
All I can say is I love the changes, really like the comboability and hope this is the playstyle they go with in SF5, a more polished version, of course. Feels like gouken without all the limitations that capcom put on him.
The only thing that is worse are the tatsu in a way because the first hitbox isnt as big at the start, so a lot of stuff that we hit in the live game doesnt work with this version of tatsu. No big deal though, considering its safer on whiff
323 DP shortcuts were removed globally. It’s annoying but the 636 shortcut still works, I believe. Anyway the point he was making was just that you can address a lot of your complaints by changing how you execute them. If you don’t want to do that, then… I’m not sure what to say. There are solutions. If you don’t like them, it’s hard to really have a discussion about it from there. It is what it is. But really… Ryu players have been stopping or hitting back before doing Hado after MK for years to avoid getting SRKs. Toward HK makes s.HK harder to use in footsies but then again you can just stop first.
Also, a lot of your other complaints are valid, some aren’t. The old c.MK being on a forward command means you can’t crouch tech with it, but c.LP is at least a frame faster and possibly 2. You can’t combo into fireballs, but you can combo into at least the first hit of EX fireball. You can’t combo directly after back throw, but you can FADC the back throw tatsu hit or super cancel it. I don’t know why you think the EX fireballs not comboing is a “bug.” They are distanced so far apart that they couldn’t possibly combo, there’s no way the designers thought they would. TBH the upwards EX fireball that doesn’t combo would have been sort of useless even if it did combo… it would have been better but I’d still probably just not use the meter and use HP fireball instead.
Also, only EX tatsu had its height restriction removed and goes through fireballs. The rest are unchanged except that they float a bit higher… in the corner you can hit super out of light tatsu.
EX Tatsu losing invincibility legitimately kind of stucks. The new tatsus aren’t my favorite things, but palms do the same damage if I’m not mistaken so comboing into them instead works fine. I haven’t really felt any loss there except on wakeup.
I think it’s weird that you are so upset when the point was not really to give Gouken a bunch of new tools in addition to his old ones but to retool him to play differently. A lot of the old stuff being gone is expected, and you seem to be willfully ignoring the fact that he is intended to work differently and has new tools in order to manufacture outrage.
On top of all that, Omega is just a mode that is here for fun. It’s unlikely to ever be taken seriously by anyone. If you don’t like Omega Gouken play a different Omega character or just don’t play it and go back to Ultra characters. There’s nothing wrong with that.
They only removed the short-cuts from certain characters and certain moves. For example Sagat can no longer short cut Tiger Uppercut but he still can short cut tiger knee.
As far as Gouken goes, they reversed the priority on his inputs as well, so fireball has priority of the dp input.
We will see how much of the stuff is changed when they decide to do the next balance patch.
Welp… Time to main Gen for Omega Mode. Gonna kick Gouken right in the nuts.
I would have rather paid for Omega mode than to get this crap… Update Patch coming in 5, 4, 3, 2,…
apologetics doesn’t make it any less rage inducing. Every time cr.hp x ex.palm fails to come out it feels like some fuckwit at capcom is going “hahaha! fuck you”, which is not the emotion I generally want when I’m spending free time trying to have fun.
I still have no idea what “c.lp” has to do with crouch teching. cr.mk as the crouch tech USED TO BE super useful for throw/dive mixups. But now it is very much not, making gouken EVEN MORE vulnerable to throw. What was the point in making it the command?
two bars to do anything useful with a move that used to be a big threat that opened up the opponent to counterhits and anti-tech. Feels like a slap in the face.
It’s timed so far apart just to be the same look as before. The fact that it combos “sometimes” makes it an unreliable pile of shit. double air fireballs but no float state makes that entire part of the move fucking pointless, but hey, so is fully sharged air fireball as well. but who cares about making sense, it’s just gouken.
ex air tatsu also only hits once per side. so if they block your IAT? enjoy your max punish.
I figured the point of making everything quickrisable was to lessen wakeup pain across the board. get everybody up and playing footsies. and then they go and fuck gouken over on wakeup for no reason. it makes no sense.
I’m not “manufacturing outrage”, I’m legitimately angry and venting. It’s just the negative outcome from having high hopes for picking it up and having some fun with some wild buffs to everybody, and instead capcom took a big smelly shit on my desk while begging for money.
update patch notes:
removed a couple infinites
buffs for popular characters
nerfs for unpopular characters
LMAO!!!
There were some good things but I’m not a fan of all the changes either.
I’m using Gen anyway. lol.
so:
- no shortcuts improved my execution. I love it.
- lp palm is godlike: safe, fast, focus breaks. it’s like a rekka.
- j.mp into lk tatsu or f+hk always works
- cr. mp into lp palm from any range
- cr. hp into mp palm into denjin for free
- cr. hp into mp palm into f+hk for free
- st. mk into stomp into cr. mp xx lp palm or hk tatsu for free
- better backdash
- counter is easier and faster to do
- ex stomp into raw ultra anytime
- ex tatsu doesnt kill me
omega gouken is better than ultra gouken in every way.
Some funny, funny stuff being written in here. Omega is the kappa of SF4. If you don’t like it, don’t use it and make lobbies that don’t permit it. There are plenty that don’t like it. If you love it, just realize that short of a balance miracle, Omega is going nowhere. For me, its fun trying to relearn my character but frustrating trying to switch between old and new. As for Omega Gouken, he is the true godpalm. So…much…damage. But that stomp requires you to get real close and do motions that are not trained. It’s weird, but that stomp is at the core of where they were going with him.
omega gouken: 100% free on wakeup.
I haven’t had time to play online with omega gouken… Would like to hear from some people who have. He a struggle?
mainline gouken is about zoning, striking hard when you get the chance, and pressuring with ambig wakeup pressure…
omega gouken is about hoping to get inside somehow with tools that are only marginally better for that so you can run some poorly thought out stomp-based offense while praying to the great divine that you don’t get knocked down because then you are truly fucked.
So his wake up worse? Wake stomps help at all? Move is fast, I wouldn’t use it for cross ups and jump ins during wake ups but what about trying for mix ups and lk on your wake ups?
Here are some of the stuff I noticed, if anyone still cares.
Super is now done with a kick instead of a punch. The last hit sends the opponent in a spinning knockdown. Not sure what this changes in the metagame.
Kongo is QCB and not RDP.
Any non-EX strength stomp is the same (I believe). It’s at least +5 on hit because I was linking cr.mp and cr.lk all day. The startup is fast enough that you can combo into it by canceling cr.mp or cr.lk.
Tatsu startup is slower, especially HK tatsu, but he doesn’t go twirling up in the air unless it hits. Auto hit-confirm lol.
MP palm has been changed to the second hit of EX palm, the palm that sends opponents in the air. It just doesn’t send them as high. LP and HP don’t knock the opponent into a spinning knockdown far away. This makes the timing tighter if you want to cancel it into super.
Fireball startup is slower, so you can’t do what you did in ultra with cr.mp xx fb. It’s like it’s gone back to Vanilla. Different combinations of punches when doing EX fireball performs shots are different angles.
His air tatsu doesn’t seem to be executable when jumping back. You also don’t have control of it when you do the EX version. It went back to Vanilla on this one I think, always traveling forward at a fixed speed.
The jabs probably got more hit advantage because linking them into cr.mp was a breeze. This also meant, we could do jab bnbs more easily (ending with lp palm or lk/ex tatsu).
cl.HK is still +5 on hit as I can still land cr.mp/cr.lk after it.
Nothing I noticed with his demon flip moves other than the faster recovery on grab.
You aren’t linking lp to mp, they changed it to allow the chain to cancel.
Only ex air tatsu can go backwards. They also removed the height restriction on ex air tatsu, but only let it be blocked once per side.
They removed the cancel ability on CL.hk, but made it hit twice as an aa.