(OLD) Ken General Discussion Thread (Combos, Techniques, etc.)

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
61

Might be a very Noob question. But I don’t care, lol, I wanna get better.

If you are getting up, and the opponent times his attack perfectly to hit you for a “MEATY” attack, can you counter? Or do you have to block?

Example of this is say they want to chip you for the win. They knocked you down already, and Hadoken you with the FB being meaty right into you. On the getup, can you do a move to avoid the FB? Or do you have to block?

This also applies to if someone times their cross-up jump kick and nails the meaty correctly.

62

I know you can do a reversal that has invincibility frames to save yourself (in Ken’s case that would be an srk). Of course if the opponent is out of range or blocks your attack you’re screwed, but there’s your answer.

63

Is this all the same information that’s in the strategy guide? I have no idea what any of this means because I never payed attention to any of it until now that I got addicted to this game. I played Street Fighter before of course, but I focused a lot of play time on Marvel vs Capcom 2 and the whole mechanics to that game is different then SF4. I don’t know about the Frame data mechanics, but I mean just the overall fighting system and what not. Anyways getting off topic, I saved a blog site that explains how all these numbers work and I plan to read everything soon maybe over the weekend. Just wanted to know if these same numbers are in the Prima strategy guide because I bought it last week and seen a bunch of frame data for characters and it would be a lot easier if everything was in front of my face so I can read the blog and frame data at the same time. Thanks in advance

64

Well, if you assume that the things that slinger says are accurate, then you must also simultaneously conclude as a result that the person saying that they are safe is full of shit. Someone isn’t telling the truth, and in my opinion, not only is slinger more reputable, but there is actually solid frame data and evidence to support his conclusions.

So in result, they are not really that safe. There is a statistical probability in excess of 50% dictating that you will in all likelihood eat damage for trying an unlinked tatsu.

65

nice, i can get the combo out easier with the standing lp.

BTW, is there any high priority air to air normal?

For instance, Ryu’s jump backward Rh
Blanka jump any direction Fierce
Chun jump straight up Rh

Anything for ken? Right now i just use Fierce as air to air, and Rh for air to round

Also, wuts the difference between crossing up with lk/mk ?

i usually use MK because of 3S habit, but i see quite a bit of ppl use lk instead~
no idea why though as it has less damage

66

Don’t really see a reason to use lk over mk for xups.

Neutral jump MK is a pretty good move, as is angled jump Fierce.

67

ZeroMH:

Tatsu IS a good choice.

First of all, THE WHOLE “IF THEY BLOCK IT YOU ARE SCREWED”-mentality is stupid.

If ppl block your srk you are DEAD. You’re not just screwed. You are DEAD. So what? You’re gonna stop using it?

The whole point of tatsu is the mmense amount of stun it deals and the fact that it does more dmg than srk.

Now ok, I don’t know why anybody would think +/- 0(mk tatsu) -1(hk tatsu) or +1(ex tatsu) are unsafe. Where I come from, only one of these 3 are at a disadvantage. But unsafe? Please.

Secondly. If one is going to look at the frame data and use it as a source you have to look at all the aspects of it. Not every character has a good solution for -1. Just take a fast look at the framedata and you will see that not only extatsu but also hktatsu are good choices.

Ken’s fastest move is a simple optionselect throw, 3f, most characters lacks that in this game. Etc etc.

My point is. Don’t put too much time on theories. -1 is not a bad situation against most characters.

68

@JoeMasters - it’s a cl HK. Just wondering, if I go from the jumping HK into a shroyuken but tap HK before Mp, will that result in a cancel?

69

hey quick question on some concept combos for ken…so last night i was just playing around in training and i started thinking of some over the top not possible in real combat combos, i set the revenge and super gauge to infinte and started comboing away. eventully i found out that if u ex srk- fdac after the 1st hit foward, and the rinse repeat u can actually do it up to 10 times, now i suspect it can be more, but i couldnt get higher then ten with out me missing or cramping up. anyone here reach the limit? is there a limit? il keep trying until i find out but anyone else wanna try by all means please inform me,

70

HJNest: As long as you cancel the frames of the cl. :hk: into the shoryu, then it is a cancel.

GildedAdonis: Jumping :lk: can beat a lot of important things out that :mk: cant. Like Blanka’s electricity. and has an easier time beating shoryus. I like to use it when people quick recover mostly.

71

@Main Event: Yes this infor is from the Street Fighter 4 Master Guide, made in Japan. The frame info in both guides are the same.

72

Ok well my whole point in asking about tatsu was that I was hitting people with it and still getting beat to the next punch. So what would you do? Option select throw immediately afterwards? Block? What?

73

Can anyone explain the option select throw please? I’ve seen it referenced a few times, and 'slinger planned on covering it in his thread, but to date I haven’t read any concrete info about it and what it does.

74

Yeah, sorry. been working lots. Haven’t had time to continue the novel.

“option select throw” is something I learned from gootecks website. www.gootecks.com

option select - means doing a command that can have multiple outcomes.
So the options select throw is doing a command which can have multiple outcomes including a throw.

putting it into practical terms. People like to tick-throw. I LOVE TO TICK-THROW. So how do you defend against someone who tick-throws all the time? Do you block the combo or do you try to tech the throw?
> the answer is simple - you do a command that accommodates both: option select throw.

I’m starting to ramble again…
Whilst you are blocking the opponents attacks - you are able to also input commands. These commands won’t work as you are in ‘block stun’. So whilst blocking - keep pressing ‘lk+lp’ as they attack.
> The outcome…

  1. They keep attacking… you will stay in block stun.
  2. They try and tick-throw… you tech
  3. They try and tick-throw but just a tad too slow and throw-command is a frame just too slow… your character will either lay a lk or lp into them - and begins your reversal combo.

Conclusion…
So option select = win win
I’ll write up how to use it best in my thread… when I get a night off work and am not putting dollars into the cab

I’m a theory and a practical fighter. I’ve done the research and I try and put it into practice. Not just what works or doesn’t work, but also, what suits me and my playstyle.

I use TATSU in combos… but only as punishers on opponent whiffs. cl.rh, hk.TATSU does tremendous damage (and great for killing off opponents). But I only use it if I’m confident that I won’t lose too much damage if I get countered afterwards if they are still alive. It doesn’t do knockdown and you are left face to face with a pissed off opponent with a ULTRA. Anyone ever been in that situation with Sagat? I have… and it’s not pretty.

I don’t agree on the ‘extensive’ use of TATSU in a match against good opponents. And I also haven’t researched/practiced option select throw after a connected TATSU. I don’t know what the outcome will be. I haven’t tried and hopefully I will remember to try. And HOPEFULLY it makes TATSU safer to use. Because Ken WILL become much more stronger if we can make combo-TATSU much more in our favour after a hit.

I have tried back-dashing. And for the most part… it’s not too good. The results have been inconsistent.

  • I haven’t been able to dodge a DP as it travels too far horizontally and will get you on the tale-end of backdash.
  • It seems to dodge all throws, including command throws. Haven’t tried it on gief yet - who the hell ever volunteers to go that close to gief?
  • It will not dodge any normals that go a fair distance. So it can dodge light punch/kick. But will get hit on the tale-end during mediums and heavy’s.

The main problem with back-dash is that it doesn’t move far enough to get you out of that particular dangerous situation. At this current state - it seems to be just as good as jump-back.

As for lk as oppose to mk for cross-up. LK is great to get you that extra priority. It also comes in a nicer angle and makes your character a slightly smaller target to hit. I use it extensively against boxer. Might start using it against gief to see if I can beat out that anti-air, from crouch, lariat nonsense.
Conclusion…
is a great move. Not ‘better than mk’- it’s not like that… they both have their times to be used. Just need to pick em. More of that when I’m not too lazy to write up on my ken thread.

p.s. I beat a good boxer player tonight 7-4. I’m so happy… usually it is 7-0 his way! Mainly thanks to j.lk. I hit him a few times with f+rh (a smirk on my face each time) as he threw his endless onslaught of cr.pokes. Once he learns that your cr.mk will beat out his dash-punch and he stops spamming it - f+rh is beautiful!

75

Thanks a ton for that writeup, it will definately get me out of a number of tight spots in the future for sure.

76

Yeah. To re-iterate the option select throwing (OST?)

A SFIV friend of mine got raped as soon as someone got a knock-down on him and started the cross-up tick-throws. To try and counter tick-throws he would pull his stick into neutral and try and throw in anticipation of the throw.

2 outcomes.

  • he would block the combo and then get thrown
  • he would try and tech-throw and get comboed.

I tried explaining the OST to him and he wasn’t too sure what I was talking about (I ramble on in RL too). So I made it simple, “Look, just keep holding back to block and keep spamming lk and lp. You’ll see what happens”.
> I then challenged him with Ken and he tech’d 90% of my throws.
> He then proceeded to win the match (a first for him). Leaving me with the thought, “Maybe I shouldn’t have taught him that?”

Note: there is more to OST then just spamming. But in general … it works.

77

Yeah, What would u do if say a Guile player just keep on spamming 2lk 2lk 2lk repeat?

my kara throw always get counter by thatt
should i sweep? but sometimes that is too sloww.

78

If thats what he keeps doing everytime you set up for Kara Throw, punish the moron.

  • shoryu, FADC, Ultra
  • Good poke

Pretty much make him scared to spam . DONT go for a cross-up cuz obviously he is storing a charge.

79

If you are trying to kara-tick-throw him and he beats you out with pokes… it means your ticking is flawed. If you are just trying to kara-throw him in general… the difficulty has increased substantially. Who wouldn’t throw jabs out if the opponent is close to them?

Taking Guile on frontally in close quarters is nearly as hard as facing Boxer at that distance. If I can’t get a cross-up out… i’m not going to try anything too fancy. His footsie game is better than Ken’s…especially considering his Sonic Boom properties.

As for me… I personally VOTE IN FAVOR of cross-up. If done at the right time and distance:

  1. They flash kick and whiff as you are passed them giving you a free hit
  2. They block it and lose charge

If done at the wrong time or distance:

  1. They were waiting for a jump… and ex.flash kick straight away getting you as soon as you leave the ground
  2. Your jump in was not far enough (meaning you can’t get them ‘just’ with the tip of your back-foot with the cross-up) and you pretty much landed on top of their head… usually ending with a ex.flash kick counter
  3. They had an ULTRA and you simply lose out either by…
  • It going the wrong direction, but it still hits you even if you are behind him
  • It reversed directions and you cop it fully

PSYCHOLOGY -
Any good guile player knows that if he whiffs a FLASH KICK … he’s screwed. So he’s not going to have a itchy trigger finger for it, right? So as long as your jump isn’t telegraphed obviously… you should be “relatively” safe. It’s the same with reverse DP’s. How many times do you actually ‘try’ it? Near impossible to pull off if they get a good cross-up. So get the good cross-up on them!

And plus, I try to exploit this. Against Boxer and Guile - they have anti-airs that go forward. Meaning if you PERSEVERE and make them WHIFF a few anti-airs and punish them. They will think twice before trying to do it next time.
> It’s not often (for me very rare) that a ‘reverse’ flashkick or headbutt comes out and I get punished. So I try and push the odds… as I see them in my favor. Its worked out pretty good for me so far.

thoughts?

80

How do you mean…

Are you referring to the whiffing being caused due to your crossup or by another means, and what would that alternate means be?