(OLD) "Dear Doctor!" Ken Match-up and Insight: Ask a question, get an answer!

Hey, I picked up Ken a few days ago and I have a question about one tactic with Guy that’s been giving me trouble. j.Elbow. Not the Flip follow-up, but just the jumping elbow drop. He was doing them all across the screen at various ranges and he was able to get in so easy it was crazy. I’m assuming I should just play the fireball game, right? He does the command one every time and I eat shit. I dunno, what’s your guys’ take on Guy? And when, if ever are we going to have a legit Ken matchup thread with an updated OP? This makes me sad.

Also, Joon. You need a lot of work on your Viper :lol:

This isn’t exactly what to do against Guy but more like what Guy wants to do against Ken. It may sound a bit weird but I check the other character threads to try and figure out what not to do.

http://shoryuken.com/f334/new-guy-match-up-thread-check-first-posts-244422/index13.html#post9707928

Dj is free to ken.play the fireball game form 3,4 screen and punish any late ex kick atemps from him.don’t bother trying to crosss him up.if they like to sobatkik on wakeup use jab instead of short if they like to use ex up kics use short instead of jab.os sweep punish his backdashwen mid range use step kik s,mp and c.mp instead of c.mk cus they like to sobat to go over lows.if u blok the sobos kiks deep u can punih with c.mk into ex tatsu but I use fierce dp and kara fierce dp to punish those.basickly treat him like guile.walk him to the corner.ex tatsu combos are good for pushing him there.don’t bother focus too much it dusnt get u anywear in this fight.and stay out of his c.mk range cus that button is godlike.this match is jus waiting walking zoneing and both ppl guessing when to jump the fireball lol.real st shit

I got some stuff for those guy mixups but I think I wana keep it to myself well at least until I see what you guys do about them

Word?

C’mon Son.

Ill give the obvious options focus. C,mk. Dp,u1 or jus block

All I would’e needed to beat that guy 3 straight, thanks man.

The guy matchup is in ken favor

you can use cr.mk to avoid everything he does, run overhead kick, bushin flip, command elbow even his normal jump ins (I think)

poke him to death with step kick and cr.mk

keep watch on his block strings, remember that anything to run puts him at minus except close medium punch and close hard punch. Target combo run puts him on -2.

Most guys like to use far mp into run or flip. run puts him at -6 so keep an eye out for that and flip can be punished with cr.mk or cr.hp.

All of his shoulders are -2 and more. so punish every blocked shoulder (except lp shoulder) with shoryuken.

be weary of his sweep and punish that with shoryuken or cr.lk into whatever. That thing is extremely unsafe unless its PERFECTLY spaced. Other than that and maybe st.mk, your pokes are vastly superior.

Dont EVER DO HK TATSU WHEN HE HAS U2. it puts you on -1 and gives him a free ultra.

Dont be too scared on his wake up because all he has is ex tatsu and Ultra but he can’t fadc out of it.

Above post is great.
if you see guy running just stick out a cr.mk, it goes under the overhead and you can punish with grab, am not sure what happens if he slides but it might trade.
Just to add on your info:-
Guy’s cross ups are all auto correctable so be ready to autocorrect with medium dp.
I prefer cr.hp as anti-air to his bushin flip because usually when i used to dp, he catches me with his command throw OR he elbow drops far away so my dp whiffs. Cr.hp can sometimes be stuffed by the elbow drop but you just have to press it when you think it will hit him in the air, just before he cancels into elbow drop.
and also if he cancels far mp into flip, you can anti air with shoryuken but its not that reliable in this matchup, so i prefer cr.hp too and cl.st.mk works wonderful as an anti air in this matchup.

I would like to offer some more help on the guile matchup.
Preferred ultra: U2, punish flashkicks and random sonic hurricanes.
General notice:
never end your block string with cr.mk hadoken, he can flashkick through it.
you should pressure him with cr.mp and st.mp frame traps if you notice him teching your kara throws, but watch out from flash kicks.

Start off the round by playing the fireball game, there are 3 kinds of guile sonic boomers.

First kind likes to hold back all the time :lame:, with this one just stay full screen hadokening … just do it… and neutral jump ex booms and NEVER ex hadoken, because he always has enough recovery to block the second hit… you shouldn’t care much about the timer because you’re only playing to frustrate him now, ( notice he’s holding back to be ready to anti-air with Cr.hp ) he will soon try to jump over your hadoken, here is the trick, if you see guile walking now throw a hadoken before he reaches mid screen, and if he jumps over it you have time to anti air with shoryuken. NOW start your vortex! ( i will talk about the specific vortex on guile soon )

Second kind is the hyped guile, this guile loves sonic booming and walking with his sonic boom, this guile wants you to jump over the boom so he air throws you, and when you decide to play the fire ball game he will keep doing the stand lk that pushes him forward while maintaining his charge, and when u hadoken and his sonic boom nullifies it, he can punish you with his backfist on your recovery, so what you do here is only throw hadokens when you’re at FULL screen ONLY, and ex hadoken after you notice him stepping forward with his light kick, and when he is walking with his boom, block it and stick out a cr.mk buffer hadoken but make sure that your in the cr.mk range! it will most likely stuff his normals except his far.hk if you didn’t pay attention to spacing.

Third guile is the noob guile, these guiles usually win by luck and cheap tactics, but they only walk back, your game plan here is to play the fireball game but push him little by little to the corner by doing some kara hadokens, strategy is same as the two above.

Vortex:-
After kara throw:
walk back a tiny bit and either j.lk OR jump-in LATE heavy tatsu crossup, these two mixups are too ambiguous and beats all of his wake up options, reversal flash kick auto corrects but ken lands in front, which gives you a free punish, if he blocks then do cr.lk and instantly kara throw, this usually catches guile off guard, and rewind. If he gets hit, finish your combo with heavy shoryuken if hes crouching, and finish it with tatsu if he’s standing.
J.mk works too.

After heavy shoryuken: ( quick stand )
1- crossup light tatsu , this stuffs reversals and backdash, if he gets hit then continue your combos ( end with srk if hes crouching, tatsu if hes standing ). If he blocks the light tatsu crossup then do a cr.lk and then instantly kara throw, trust me, they never expect a kara throw at this point.
2- another option is dash forward and get a meaty cr.lk > cr.lp ( OS sweep or U2 ) to stuff every wake up option he has except flash kick.
3- Dash and then crouch close to him, do a VERY late double-tap crouch tech, outcomes are : flashkicks gets blocked, normals gets blocked, throw gets teched, back dash gets stuffed by cr.lk and guile resets in the air.
After the air reset you can also do option 2 and 3 above or surprise him with a kara throw just when he lands. If guild doesn’t quick stand, best option is option 3.

After ex tatsu combo:
1- cr.lk > cr.lp OS sweep > combo , outcomes are: grab gets stuffed, back dash gets swept but flash kick wins.
2-hold back and do a late grab, outcomes are : if he grabs you tech it, if you blocks thinking you’d shoryuken you’ll backthrow him, flashkick gets blocked, loses to backdash and cr.lk.

After backthrow:
1- meaty light hadoken > ex hadoken ( 3-hit combo ) > HOLD DOWN BACK, and if blocked its a true, unjump-able block string, outcomes are: backdash gets hit by hadoken flashkick gets blocked. The down side to this is he can just block and make you lose 1 ex meter, but its not necessary to do the ex hadoken.
2- Whiff cr.mp ( for timing ) then jump heavy tatsu ( hits infront, meaty ) , makes flash kicks whiff, but can be crouched under, and backdashed out of, you can do light tatsu at the apex of the jump but i prefer heavy tatsu.
3-Whiff cr.mp jump heavy tatsu but this time do it earlier so it crosses up, this stuffs all flash kicks, but he can get away with back dash.
4- walk forward and jump crossup light tatsu, ( refer to vortex after heavy shoryu).

After anti-air mid shoryuken:
1- The late crouch tech trick. ( refer to vortex after heavy shoryu) .
2- meaty cr.lk OS sweep or U2.( refer to vortex after heavy shoryu).

PS:
This does not mean that the matchup is easy, its still a guessing game, with footsies and patience and so much patience.
There is also an ambiguous jump-in jab trick after forward throw, it only crosses up if guile presses nothing, it also makes flash kicks whiff, but j.lk/heavy tatsu is always better.
And you can also do some of the shoryuken knockdown follow ups after throw, and vice-versa.
I forgot to mention that the benefit of cornering guile is not so much, only good thing is you can pressure him with block string and overheads, but the main purpose here is not getting cornered yourself :).
Guile’s corner pressure is so good, you have to be on point, punishing sweep with U2 or shoryuken after first hit, or cr.mk/sweep his backfist, and punishing his target combo and overhead with reversal shoryuken ( its -3 on block ).

I hope i helped,

GTF.
EDIT: Updated some stuff.

Great. Post above.I didn’t know his overhead was. Neg 3 and the jab trick and the heavy tatsu trick is new to me also

Just took the guile target combo to training and I culdnt punish it with srk on blok only a super punished it so it must be like neg 2

OK so I got bodied by a player using DeeJay and Fei Long 20-0 in endless…

The fei matches where close, I won a few rounds here and there, but it seemed like Fei just had better tools to close out the match…so how do I punish rekka punches? after I block it, it looks like i’m too far to fshory, or he quickly blocks it, and I think he kept mashing dp flamekick as I was midway thru a combo (lag? timing?)

As for deejay, he just turtled, no idea what to do.

Also what do you guys do when someone is starting a combo on you? Do you guys start mashing button/dp movements hoping a shory reversal will come out? I just hold back, hoping eventually I will block.

Hope this helps out agains guile Aka eraser head lol. [media=youtube]KSTri34f420&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/media]

Can some on explain these type of tech throw cause there confusing me. Standing tech. Crouching tech. Early tech. And late tech. Wats the timing for each

My bad. You are right on this one, but remember bro, we are talking about those situations when ken is cornered by guile.
So let me correct myself, guile’s cr.mk is punishable with heavy shoryuken when he’s facing you and you’re cornered, so you might as well srk after any cr.mk may it be target combo or just a cr.mk.
To make this easy, just mash shoryuken after any blocked low attack from guile when he’s cornering you, may it be Cr.mk or Cr.hk.

G77 also requested an explanation on jump-in jab.
Ok i just ran some tests and discovered that jump-in jab is REALLY good to mix it up on guile! So we said j.lk and j.h.tatsu are for flashkicks to whiff, and they are blocked as crossups right? Well the j.lp serves the exact same purpose as these two but hits front, and looks really ambiguous and its easier to OS U2/sweep for backdashes! but only downside is if he flashkicks, your OS U2 will hit him airborne so you don’t get the full ultra, and if you OS sweep and he flashkicks, you can only punish the light( and probably medium) version with ultra or combo. For ex and heavy flashkicks you can only punish with step kick i guess ( it was hard testing it without a partner, using only record ).
Ok so there are two kinds of the j.lp on guile, it depends on spacing :-
1- After forward throw, walk back a little and J.lp , if you set the dummy on stand, it will cross him up, but if you are controlling the dummy guile and block it as cross up it will hit you, so its blocked normally. ( this version is harder to insert OS into and is the useless on i mentioned onr my last post). ( i only shared this so that people can be creative and try testing it on other characters.)

2- This one is the great one, after forward throw walk a bit more, but not too much so it doesn’t look as an obvious jump-in that would hit front, and j.lp OS w/e > bnb.
I have no possible way to explain the spacing, its about 5 mini training stage blocks i guess.

@ Yourboycurt:
I think JoonThaBaboon already explained crouch techs somewhere, or was it about frame traps?
anyways late crouch tech is when you wait it out so that you press cr.lk+cr.lp to tech throws, and making it late enough that if your opponents wakes up with a dp, you have time to block it, i remember ImagineVC posting a similar example on akuma but i can’t find the video.
Standing techs are the same, but only purpose here is if your opponent thinks YOU will wake up with dp. You just hold back for half a second and grab, if they grab you tech it, if they block you grab them, but this loses to low attacks.

I hope i helped,

Thanks I’ll practice this in training mode tonight

Id like some help/advice on fighting Abel. I play a good Abel every night, and the main thing that gets me is the Tornado throw. The startup seems to be almost instant, and i need a way to counter/punish this.
Ive seen the post a few replies above around using mp against Abel, but any other advice would be greatly appreciated so i can continue to give my mate something to work for lol

thanks in advance

I would also like to know what the answer to this question is

Yo it all depends I mash dp at first because the majority of people really don’t expect it at first. not many people actually bait dps at the beginning of a round when they don’t no u. But other than that it all depends on what the persons patterns are. Me for instance because I am not great on stick yet I. Would miss my combos i go for a throw or my combos don’t combo (?..lol). And I fight an abel regularly and dp or jump up will get u out of tornado throw if u think its comin. I am not sure if backdashing will work cuz I could have been meessing up my timing or something. Also focusing his step kick seems to work and if he does his ovehead kick to break glass bait it than punish either wit u2 or c.mk. when I get into abels blockstring I always make sure to keep him guessing. And iu have to stay on him to win and throw hiis roll. He really doesn’t have a good way out of pressure.

And u could punish I think all rekkas on block. wit f.srk. if its deep enough and. But if ur mashing dp in between the rekkas u might get hit if he does full blockstring rekkas. If u block the third hit ultra him. And u could also punished with rekkas wit c.mk into tatsu I like to throw standing lp when I think he’s gonna rekka and it works a lot.

you cant punish a well spaced lp.rekka. I think it’s -2 on block and if they use any other rekka (cant see the difference though) then your good to go. But most of the time cr.mk is your choice of weapon. From there you can cancel it into srk’s, tatsus and whatnot.